Thread:

No timing marks?

I'm with hass on the setting the valves, That is the way I have done it for years, seems I can only focus on one hole at a time. but I'm old so I have an excuse.

Originally Posted by Wild Hair

I'm with hass on the setting the valves, That is the way I have done it for years, seems I can only focus on one hole at a time. but I'm old so I have an excuse.

No excuse WH. Go have it tatted on the back of your hand

For you Mopar lovers


And for the Ferd Freeks:

Ok Rampgirll spill the beans, how did you fair on the pissen match.

Do it in firing order. But we have the 7-4 swap. One of my chronies came to my rescue because the guy was getting mean. I'm not much on getting into pissing matches. Gigglin & drinkin is more my style.

Originally Posted by gn7

You believe a stop is more accurate that a dial indicator measure .050 before and after and using that as a "in between"? And you make comments about my timing light? Talk about a stone age method!!!!

Yes I still use a straight up T light. See WAAAAAAAAAY to many "advancing" lights off. There are more than a couple straight up timing lights that have no business being used on a performance engine.

But anything that electronically "delays" the flash, no thank you.

Using an indicator to find TDC is kinda like using a dial back timing light. Positive stop method for finding TDC is by far the most accurate. Your indicator can't account for piston rock. If you tell me you put it right over the pin, or you rock the piston by hand the same amount every time, I WILL laugh at you.
As far as timing lights...I haven't seen too many "dial back" lights that read exactly the same dialed back, as they do at zero. If you have one that does, then it doesn't matter what method you use. It's easy enough to check.

Originally Posted by rampgirlll

Do it in firing order. But we have the 7-4 swap. One of my chronies came to my rescue because the guy was getting mean. I'm not much on getting into pissing matches. Gigglin & drinkin is more my style.

Originally Posted by steelcomp

Using an indicator to find TDC is kinda like using a dial back timing light. Positive stop method for finding TDC is by far the most accurate. Your indicator can't account for piston rock. If you tell me you put it right over the pin, or you rock the piston by hand the same amount every time, I WILL laugh at you.
As far as timing lights...I haven't seen too many "dial back" lights that read exactly the same dialed back, as they do at zero. If you have one that does, then it doesn't matter what method you use. It's easy enough to check.

As usual guys and girls, if you ask 6 people, you'll likely get 6 different answers to a variety of assembly/tuning questions... I happen to prefer the firing order TDC method to set valves, especially if dealing with/teaching a person that hasn't been doing it for years... As far as true TDC, I use the "travel indicator" if the head is off, and the positive stop method if the head is already on. Either way works, and in reality ignition timing is more about relative to what you "have" vs absolute numbers... By that I mean if you "think" you're at 37* locked out, by whatever instrument, adding or subtracting 1 or 2, or 4, or whatever, with that same instrument, for performance tuning is "relative" to what you HAD, not necessarily an absolute number. If the timing is not locked, it is more important, IMO, to establish the "curve" than to set an absolute initial point. The high end of the timing is were the performance will be gained/lost more so than the initial starting point.... The fun stuff starts when a rookie tries to install the gears when there are no timing marks to line up on the cam or crank gears....
Ray
PS Rampgirl, just point out who it was that was "getting mean" with you, we'll take care of him in short order!!!! We got your back girl, you set those valves anyway you choose!!!!

Originally Posted by Moneypit

As usual guys and girls, if you ask 6 people, you'll likely get 6 different answers to a variety of assembly/tuning questions... I happen to prefer the firing order TDC method to set valves, especially if dealing with/teaching a person that hasn't been doing it for years... As far as true TDC, I use the "travel indicator" if the head is off, and the positive stop method if the head is already on. Either way works, and in reality ignition timing is more about relative to what you "have" vs absolute numbers... By that I mean if you "think" you're at 37* locked out, by whatever instrument, adding or subtracting 1 or 2, or 4, or whatever, with that same instrument, for performance tuning is "relative" to what you HAD, not necessarily an absolute number. If the timing is not locked, it is more important, IMO, to establish the "curve" than to set an absolute initial point. The high end of the timing is were the performance will be gained/lost more so than the initial starting point.... The fun stuff starts when a rookie tries to install the gears when there are no timing marks to line up on the cam or crank gears....
Ray
PS Rampgirl, just point out who it was that was "getting mean" with you, we'll take care of him in short order!!!! We got your back girl, you set those valves anyway you choose!!!!

Awe thanks Ray, your so sweet. The guy just got in my face and said "you just read that in a book", all I could come back with was "at least I can read and follow directions".
Long story short, the same guy used to work on a boat with me. I asked him to put teflon tape on the connection to our air bottle. When my driver came back from a crap-ass pass because the boat didn't shift because there was an air leak...I looked back there and the dip shit had put the teflon tape on the outside NOT on the threads. I took as ass chewing for that.

Originally Posted by rampgirlll

Awe thanks Ray, your so sweet. The guy just got in my face and said "you just read that in a book", all I could come back with was "at least I can read and follow directions".
Long story short, the same guy used to work on a boat with me. I asked him to put teflon tape on the connection to our air bottle. When my driver came back from a crap-ass pass because the boat didn't shift because there was an air leak...I looked back there and the dip shit had put the teflon tape on the outside NOT on the threads. I took as ass chewing for that.

That's one thing about "help" at the races.... We aint paying them, so we can't fire them.... All we can do is try to keep their grimy fingers off the stuff that counts the most.... I know me and my crew on the PS89 boat won't let Mike, the owner, TOUCH anything associated with the motor, nothing... No cable ties, no bolt tightening between heats, no battery cables or wiring, nothing.... He can, and does, keep the gas tank topped off, and the little dab of tape indicating the steering wheel is straight, the AAA battery in the "egg timer" when using clock starts, and anything associated with the safety gear/helmet visor.....AND, sometimes he gets to re set the tach "recall" feature.....
Ray

Ha that's funny...first team owner/ driver would wanna change gears, prop, pill and timing ALL AT ONCE AFTER AN .07 pass. I duct taped the tool box drawers shut and told him I was going home right that minute if he changed a damn thing.

thread jack...
when i crewed, we didn't really want the owner/driver doing anything. like ray said, take care of your safety gear. if he hung around to see what we were doing, that was fine. lash had to be checked after each pass, hardware had to be checked, etc., etc, etc. it was a benefit to have him do all the talking to whoever came up to bs, go get cheezeburgers, go watch the track, etc. it just took awhile to turn that thing around, and any interuption was just a distraction which we didn't need.

after crewing 3 years, as owner driver i'm a little different, in that i'm hands on with everything. i'm picky about who helps me, and assuring that what they do is done correctly. years ago, i lost a couple races due to issues, so i verify everything before the boat goes in the water. it's not that i don't trust. but i worked in a culture of independent verification for decades. anytime there are humans involved, something can be overlooked, and it's usually unintentional.

this will probably get misconstrued, but i'll say it anyway. ya know patty, it worries me when i see a hoard of people surrounding a boat for a prayer meeting when it is the next boat to go in the water. that's really the last opportunity for the "hands on" crew members to thoroughly inspect (verify) everything on the boat. the crowd AND the activity distracts and gets in the way of the activity that should really be going on at that point. i have absolutely no problem with what rfc does, appreciate it, and have taken advantage of it countless times. but i do believe there should be a demarcation line, further back in staging, beyond which nobody goes except "hands on" crew members. i also believe there should be a competent tech inspector at the ramp eyeballing every boat that goes in the water, which i know is fantasyland. this is just my opinion, but when boats go out to the rope and sink, something was overlooked that shouldn't have been.
just my 2 cents. while nothing will probably change, i'll still worry when i see it...

Originally Posted by bp298

this will probably get misconstrued, but i'll say it anyway. ya know patty, it worries me when i see a hoard of people surrounding a boat for a prayer meeting when it is the next boat to go in the water. that's really the last opportunity for the "hands on" crew members to thoroughly inspect (verify) everything on the boat. the crowd AND the activity distracts and gets in the way of the activity that should really be going on at that point. i have absolutely no problem with what rfc does, appreciate it, and have taken advantage of it countless times. but i do believe there should be a demarcation line, further back in staging, beyond which nobody goes except "hands on" crew members. i also believe there should be a competent tech inspector at the ramp eyeballing every boat that goes in the water, which i know is fantasyland. this is just my opinion, but when boats go out to the rope and sink, something was overlooked that shouldn't have been.
just my 2 cents. while nothing will probably change, i'll still worry when i see it...

Not misconstrued at all Bob. I know plenty of teams have to do ramp prep ie put the rudder on, strap in the driver, we don't have to do any of that on the ramp. If its really hot then I fill the back and front of her lifejacket with ice cubes to keep her cool but we don't even have plugs in this hull so we don't need to even check plugs. Scuttle butt on the sinking boats last year was some guy that was in ramp help thought it would be funny to yank plugs. I do agree with you on the hands on and all and that, not everything can be prevented but we do our best. I always check with Randy before every pass and with all questionable situations since A) Its his daughter in it, and B) Its his boat.

But we will not put Lauren in the water without a prayer. We have done it via cell phone, or had a chaplain paged to the in ramp. The one time I prayed with her without a chaplain, she ran her new hull up on the rocks in OKC. I felt so bad cuz when she told me what happened she was crying.

Originally Posted by bp298

thread jack...
when i crewed, we didn't really want the owner/driver doing anything. like ray said, take care of your safety gear. if he hung around to see what we were doing, that was fine. lash had to be checked after each pass, hardware had to be checked, etc., etc, etc. it was a benefit to have him do all the talking to whoever came up to bs, go get cheezeburgers, go watch the track, etc. it just took awhile to turn that thing around, and any interuption was just a distraction which we didn't need.

after crewing 3 years, as owner driver i'm a little different, in that i'm hands on with everything. i'm picky about who helps me, and assuring that what they do is done correctly. years ago, i lost a couple races due to issues, so i verify everything before the boat goes in the water. it's not that i don't trust. but i worked in a culture of independent verification for decades. anytime there are humans involved, something can be overlooked, and it's usually unintentional.

this will probably get misconstrued, but i'll say it anyway. ya know patty, it worries me when i see a hoard of people surrounding a boat for a prayer meeting when it is the next boat to go in the water. that's really the last opportunity for the "hands on" crew members to thoroughly inspect (verify) everything on the boat. the crowd AND the activity distracts and gets in the way of the activity that should really be going on at that point. i have absolutely no problem with what rfc does, appreciate it, and have taken advantage of it countless times. but i do believe there should be a demarcation line, further back in staging, beyond which nobody goes except "hands on" crew members. i also believe there should be a competent tech inspector at the ramp eyeballing every boat that goes in the water, which i know is fantasyland. this is just my opinion, but when boats go out to the rope and sink, something was overlooked that shouldn't have been.
just my 2 cents. while nothing will probably change, i'll still worry when i see it...

There is no demarcation line with God.

Originally Posted by rampgirlll

Not misconstrued at all Bob. I know plenty of teams have to do ramp prep ie put the rudder on, strap in the driver, we don't have to do any of that on the ramp. If its really hot then I fill the back and front of her lifejacket with ice cubes to keep her cool but we don't even have plugs in this hull so we don't need to even check plugs. Scuttle butt on the sinking boats last year was some guy that was in ramp help thought it would be funny to yank plugs. I do agree with you on the hands on and all and that, not everything can be prevented but we do our best. I always check with Randy before every pass and with all questionable situations since A) Its his daughter in it, and B) Its his boat.

But we will not put Lauren in the water without a prayer. We have done it via cell phone, or had a chaplain paged to the in ramp. The one time I prayed with her without a chaplain, she ran her new hull up on the rocks in OKC. I felt so bad cuz when she told me what happened she was crying.