G Force vs fuel distribution (another argument thread)

[gn7]

Its all in the port nozzels. Anything above the blowers is like shooting a fire hose into a tornado. The air current plays a bigger part where the water goes than where in the tornado you shot the water and at what angle.

[bp298]

Wags, you were doing so good right up to that last sentence!!

well, wags does live in kansas. which is not that far from oklahoma... just sayin

[gn7]

well, wags does live in kansas. which is not that far from oklahoma... just sayin

Well then, he should have a really good understanding of the water distribution in a tornado as well.

MSDs do work in Oklahoma. You just have to change the box when you change the plugs.

[wizbang]

I didn't see very much change in the nozzles between the dyno and the boat ( K ) ??

We did see a nice intake temp change ( lower ) by adding a baffle into the back of the hat to contour the air into the blower.

Having the hat on backwards is a REALLY bad thing for the intake temp !

I didn't change but a few port nozzles from the dyno to the boat, only to complete the temps as being raced. It was like move a couple at .002-.003.

We have them like 15 degrees apart. We are going to try for 5 degrees !

It is amazing what throttle poisition or overdrive does to the nozzling.

IMO the "G's " aren't much affect at all in the blown thing?

[gn7]

IMO the "G's " aren't much affect at all in the blown thing?

Tell that to Austin Coil and Alan Johnson.

[wizbang]

Tell that to Austin Coil and Alan Johnson.

Big difference from 5.5 G's and our circle boat I think ?

I can ask Ron what he thinks about it on the fuel car ?
I've never seen anything there that was talked about though ?

[gn7]

Big difference from 5.5 G's and our circle boat I think ?

I can ask Ron what he thinks about it on the fuel car ?
I've never seen anything there that was talked about though ?

5.5? You talking in the traps?
You want to pull those kinds of Gs, you need to get a bigger gas pedal, and a guy that can reach it. Thats the whole secret Brain.

[fc-Pilot]

You want to pull those kinds of Gs, you need to get a bigger gas pedal, and a guy that can reach it. Thats the whole secret Brain.

I would offer my assistance as I have a "small hat size and a big shoe size" and don't have too much of a problem reaching the pedals, but Brian has a guy that makes me feel tiny so I have a feeling that would not be a problem for him.LOL

Paul

[wizbang]

Fuel car is close to the 5.5 g thing at the hit !

I asked a "friend" this :

"So, a buddy of mine and I were having a discussion over many beers. We were arguing how g forces from acceleration would affect fuel cyl to cyl distribution. In a blown piece ?
Then the air flow at/ past the engine.... how does this addect cyl to cyl distribution?
I think it would, but not tons. He says...tons! "

Brian,

( Off the top of my head without any calculations... ) Probably wouldn't affect the distribution.

My thought is that the forces of the air flow moving the fuel within the fuel delivery system probably overwhelm the relatively small forces caused by g forces. If we knew the droplet size ( assuming the fuel is not vaporized ) and therefore we would know the weight we could calculate how much force is applied. Since the size of the non-vaporized fuel is pretty small ... so are the forces on that tiny droplet. If it is vapor then the affect is applied to both the air and the fuel, probably negligible.

Jim

[Beer:30]

without being on a dyno first, how would you even know if the problem was G forces or something physical in the manifolding.
Like I said, the blower discharge has a bigger influence on distribution than the forces at that level.

Don't let Beer snow you for a second with the EFI hog wash. NASCAR boys found a whole new set of distribution issues when they went to EFI. There is NOTHING in EFI that can cure a distribtion issue that can't be duplicated with a port MFI nozzel.

The hat? I am still laughing.

Talk about laughing. You guys are so hell bent on proving ME wrong that you don't look around at EVERY VEHICLE, VESSEL, MOTORCYCLE OR PLANE that is produced today. It has NOTHING to do with who is right or wrong. It about common sense. The people running NASCAR - as well as the people running MERCURY RACING - know alot more than any of us. They are the ones doing the hours and hours of research on what works best and what doesn't.

However, common sense is not as common as many would like. Of course, fuel SPRAYED directly into the intake port - especially right at the intake VALVE, will cancel out most/if not ALL/ of the fuel vs. G-force issue. Yes, an old school mechanical fuel injection unit with PORT injectors can also cancel that out. But, it's still blind to engine temperature, inlet air temperature, and altitude. It also cannot talk to the engine timing and work hand-in-hand with it. Mechanical FI has no idea what the timing is doing and vice-versa.

Additionally, you can "trim" the mechanical FI injectors by drilling (how OLD school is THAT?) the nozzles to get the fuel flow near-perfect for each cylinder. But that is ONLY ON THAT DAY. When barometric pressure (altitude) or any other changes are made - the injectors CANNOT correct for that. They are locked-in to that setting. The EFI is CONSTANTLY changing EACH injector, ever second of every day it is running. Yes, some are BATCHED, where all (let's say 8) injectors are being ran at the same setting without "trimming" each cylinder. But, that is STILL being adjusted for altitude, temperature, timing, air temp, etc, etc.

ANY of this information can be confirmed by several sources other than myself. Again, it's common sense, if you know what EFI was designed and used for. If you don't believe me or the information at hand, that's totally fine. Just be fair to other's on here who may be seeking accurate knowledge about the three systems (carb, mech FI, EFI). Each item is correct for their own applications.

[steelcomp]

Tell that to Austin Coil and Alan Johnson.

The G forces they're more concerned with are the ones effecting fuel in the fuel delivery system. I remember working with AJ on the first fuel car building the fuel system, specificlally the main fuel line from the tank to the dual Waterman pumps. The main fuel line was a 2.5" dia section of aluminum tubing and we were talking about how much the G forces were going to effect the fuel in that line. Of course, in that case it was all in favor of the system with the tank in front of the engine. That's not always the case, though. Every fuel line in the car is effected by inertia to some extent.

[gn7]

The G forces they're more concerned with are the ones effecting fuel in the fuel delivery system. I remember working with AJ on the first fuel car building the fuel system, specificlally the main fuel line from the tank to the dual Waterman pumps. The main fuel line was a 2.5" dia section of aluminum tubing and we were talking about how much the G forces were going to effect the fuel in that line. Of course, in that case it was all in favor of the system with the tank in front of the engine. That's not always the case, though. Every fuel line in the car is effected by inertia to some extent.

No doubt. The forces in the fuel line add up quick. You can experience issues with a hard lauching N/A gas deal with an electric pump in the back.
But there is a definite change in the nozzels front to rear on those things. But I imagine alot of it has to do with unsuspended fuel more than the fuel in suspension.

[steelcomp]

Talk about laughing. You guys are so hell bent on proving ME wrong that you don't look around at EVERY VEHICLE, VESSEL, MOTORCYCLE OR PLANE that is produced today. It has NOTHING to do with who is right or wrong. It about common sense. The people running NASCAR - as well as the people running MERCURY RACING - know alot more than any of us. They are the ones doing the hours and hours of research on what works best and what doesn't.

However, common sense is not as common as many would like. Of course, fuel SPRAYED directly into the intake port - especially right at the intake VALVE, will cancel out most/if not ALL/ of the fuel vs. G-force issue. Yes, an old school mechanical fuel injection unit with PORT injectors can also cancel that out. But, it's still blind to engine temperature, inlet air temperature, and altitude. It also cannot talk to the engine timing and work hand-in-hand with it. Mechanical FI has no idea what the timing is doing and vice-versa.

Additionally, you can "trim" the mechanical FI injectors by drilling (how OLD school is THAT?) the nozzles to get the fuel flow near-perfect for each cylinder. But that is ONLY ON THAT DAY. When barometric pressure (altitude) or any other changes are made - the injectors CANNOT correct for that. They are locked-in to that setting. The EFI is CONSTANTLY changing EACH injector, ever second of every day it is running. Yes, some are BATCHED, where all (let's say 8) injectors are being ran at the same setting without "trimming" each cylinder. But, that is STILL being adjusted for altitude, temperature, timing, air temp, etc, etc.

ANY of this information can be confirmed by several sources other than myself. Again, it's common sense, if you know what EFI was designed and used for. If you don't believe me or the information at hand, that's totally fine. Just be fair to other's on here who may be seeking accurate knowledge about the three systems (carb, mech FI, EFI). Each item is correct for their own applications.

Hey Beevis...where's Buthead?
I don't think anything you said has anything to do with fuel distribution.
Have you looked at the location of the injectors in most modern efi racing engines? They're no where near the valve.
What does timing control have to do with fuel distribution?
What does altitude compensation have to do with fuel distribution?
Just curious what the heck you're trying to say here regarding fuel distribution and G forces...

[gn7]

He is such an asset to the forum. Just a wealth of BULLSHIT!

I sure that the NUMBER 1 reason that the OEMs went to EFI was performance.
How many times has that line of BS been debunked?

Of course, if I towed with my boat, drove in traffic, drove up and down hills, and really gave a flying F about the emmissions it was spewing and MILAGE, instead of the HP, I would probably go with EFI myself.
BUT I DON'T DO ANY OF THOSE THINGS