Crower lifter non-needle bearing
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Crower lifter non-needle bearing

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    Resident Ford Nut Sleeper CP's Avatar
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    Default Crower lifter non-needle bearing

    Who's first ?????

    Non-needle bearing extreme duty lifter:



    I need a BBF part number.


    S CP

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    Bostick Racing Engines six-oh-nine's Avatar
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    The Enduromax lifter? It's just a bearing option for all the other lifter styles.

    Or do you mean the Maximus lifter? Still has needles though... Nice part... real nice!

    460 Ford... .842 Dia... 66217M-16

    Kinda spendy though... even at WD pricing...

    Personally... after talking to Loren and Guy at Crower... I kinda prefer the needle bearing vs the bushing. Nothing wrong with the bushing... just I happen to like carrot cake more than chocolate cake kind of deal.
    Last edited by six-oh-nine; 10-14-2011 at 12:00 AM.
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    I'll check with Danny on them next week

    S CP

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    gn7
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    Why does everyone insist on calling that a "bushing?" There are bushings in the small end of the rod, and sometimes in lifter bores. But does anybody refer to the inserts in the rods and mains as "bushings?" Are the pieces of rolled tubing the cam rides in a "bushing?"
    Everybody has the idea that the "bushing" is made of some super slick material that rivals a roller bearing. Thats not 100% correct. Whats really going on is that you cannot create a hydraulic wedge with a needle bearing, not matter how oil flow, or oil pressure you feed it. Truthfully, I loose no sleep over non oiled feed roller lifters. Thyere may be some advatage in a engine that idles or runs at low RPM for extended periods, and dry sumps makle the problem worse, as can vacuum pumps. But in almost any race engine I can't see a huge advantage. I have never lost a roller to what I would blame on lack of oil.
    But with a "plain bearing" and oil pressure you can generate a wedge. Its the same idea behind the Schubeck roller and the Performance Research Pro Xtreme ball lifter.






    Sleeper, I have to ask, are you, or have you had soon bad experience with failing roller lifters? There a couple of guys running Isky easy roll lifters in the GN class, and I'am not sold yet.
    I have seen the bearing split, and they are doomed in the event they lose oil pressure or flow. A standard roller lifter is not even dependent on oil pressure, and a pressure feed lifter is in no worse shape than a standard non ped lifter in the event of pressure loss. In a Ford 385 this not nearly the issue it is with a priority main BBC engine. But I have had catastrophic pressure loss that has resulted suffer engine damage, and never took a second look at my lifter to see if they suffered from pressure loss. They never were pressure feed to start with.

    Also, if you think about the clearances of a rod or main bearing, and the micro rating of your oil filter, 20 microns is a non issue. But if the smallest POS finds its way to the bearing in that roller, it can be skid city, or at the very least, a scored bearing. Scoring the bearing in a plain bearing crank is bad enough, but in something as small as the lifter's bearing, its a huge % loss of surface area, and a possible hydraulic leak when trying to create a wedge.
    A roller bearing simply flushes crap like that out the gaps between the rollers. A roller will tolerate crud much better than a tight tolerance plain bearing. Its why Detroit has never gone in this direction.
    When I look at the rollers ability to take this stuff in stride, and the fact that I have never had any issues with rollers, and they have proven themselves in millions of miles in OEM owner abused engines, I have never had a desire to got that route.
    If I was going to try them, I would be much more willing to do it in a stock block 385 than in a top oiler BBC.
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    Last edited by gn7; 10-14-2011 at 10:52 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post


    Sleeper, I have to ask, are you, or have you had soon bad experience with failing roller lifters? There a couple of guys running Isky easy roll lifters in the GN class, and I'am not sold yet.
    I have seen the bearing split, and they are doomed in the event they lose oil pressure or flow. A standard roller lifter is not even dependent on oil pressure, and a pressure feed lifter is in no worse shape than a standard non ped lifter in the event of pressure loss. In a Ford 385 this not nearly the issue it is with a priority main BBC engine. But I have had catastrophic pressure loss that has resulted suffer engine damage, and never took a second look at my lifter to see if they suffered from pressure loss. They never were pressure feed to start with.

    .
    Just once but I'll take the blame for not replacing them earlier.... it was in 2007, but the lifters should have been replaced at rebuild....actually forgot about the number of laps that were on them during rebuild. Had I thought about it I would have replaced them.

    Danny Crower tells me the new hippo-lifters I'm using have a much superior bearing then even the lifters from 3 yrs ago......... he really likes them but still suggests replacing them at 100hrs for 100% saftey. I haven't had the opportunity to ask him about this new lifter and what he thinks about it.

    S CP

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    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeper CP View Post
    Just once but I'll take the blame for not replacing them earlier.... it was in 2007, but the lifters should have been replaced at rebuild....actually forgot about the number of laps that were on them during rebuild. Had I thought about it I would have replaced them.

    Danny Crower tells me the new hippo-lifters I'm using have a much superior bearing then even the lifters from 3 yrs ago......... he really likes them but still suggests replacing them at 100hrs for 100% saftey. I haven't had the opportunity to ask him about this new lifter and what he thinks about it.

    S CP
    The number one killer of lifters by far is tired or improper springs. Second is the lobe profile and/or improper lash. A profile with a severe inverse flank can taske out a set of rollers in 50 trips down track. Throw in a lose lash to boot and you can kill a set before you get to the end of the track. Oil supply takes a distant 3rd to all of them.
    There is no doubt that the bearings, and the accuracy of the bearings has come a long ways in just a few years. But I would pay 10.00 more for a set of lifters to have an oil feed. If its there, fine. But I won't pay for it. Its like cross drilling a crank. I can take it or leave it.
    Last edited by gn7; 10-15-2011 at 10:57 AM.
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    Default Roller lifters

    When I worked at Jim's Machining in Camarillo we manufactured 10s of thousands of roller "tappets" for Harley ablesons.... From raw stock, to the finished product, and the R&D team there spent countless hours/months/years, and thousands of "test" miles on the road. The "roller" was an outside supplied item, and they were always an area of concern. After years, and experiments with "bushing" type bearings, the desired end result was a high quality needle roller... Jim's made lifters for S&S, as well as the "Screaming Eagle" Harley line by the thousands, so lifter bearing failure was not acceptable. The axles, and believe it or not, the way the axle was "swedged", (staked), into the lifter also played a huge role in success or failure. The Harley "Tappet blocks" are aluminum, and the steel lifters ride in them, so perpendicularity was critical to prevent excessive "block" wear. Holding that to .0004 MAX error made little difference if the bearing failed and wiped out the camshaft.... After all was said and done, there is no doubt in my mind that the needles out performed the bushing style when used in Harleys......
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Why does everyone insist on calling that a "bushing?" There are bushings in the small end of the rod, and sometimes in lifter bores. But does anybody refer to the inserts in the rods and mains as "bushings?" Are the pieces of rolled tubing the cam rides in a "bushing?"
    I am glad that you were able to find something in this thread to annoy you... for a miniute I was worried this thread would go unscathed.

    Typically, in refrence to an engine, "bushing" is made up of a singular material, whereas a "bearing" has mutiple parts, be it rollers, balls, or layers of material. A busing would be correct in most instances for rod pin areas as they are typically a single material, bronze, whereas a rod bearing is made up of at least two different materails layered. So in this case, the term "bushing" would be suited, but is that remains a term that is unsettling, then we could go with "non-needle bearing" if that will create less controversy.


    Back to topic... Jon... I asked about the part number for this option and it is just a letter extension on the regular part number... but for the life of me, cannot recall it right now... must be getting old... and been hectic here... so that could be a contributing factor.
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    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by six-oh-nine View Post
    I am glad that you were able to find something in this thread to annoy you... for a miniute I was worried this thread would go unscathed.

    Typically, in refrence to an engine, "bushing" is made up of a singular material, whereas a "bearing" has mutiple parts, be it rollers, balls, or layers of material. A busing would be correct in most instances for rod pin areas as they are typically a single material, bronze, whereas a rod bearing is made up of at least two different materails layered. So in this case, the term "bushing" would be suited, but is that remains a term that is unsettling, then we could go with "non-needle bearing" if that will create less controversy.


    Back to topic... Jon... I asked about the part number for this option and it is just a letter extension on the regular part number... but for the life of me, cannot recall it right now... must be getting old... and been hectic here... so that could be a contributing factor.
    Not to split hairs here, But I guess the one piece all alumn, non layered main and rod rod bearings used in top fuel engines are really just bushings. So by definition, a piece of seamless tubing coated with babbitt goes from a bushing to a bearing with the addition of the babitt? Even it was still installed in the small end of a rod? I can buy that. You're right, it is splitting hairs. But interestingly, Isky never calls it a bushing in any articles or ads. Probably totally different material than Crowers, or the rolling action uses a different physics that is more advantagous to bearing than a bushing.

    Geez 6-0-9, you had a much better sense of humor on your LS thread. that was a sense of humor wasn't it?
    Last edited by gn7; 10-15-2011 at 03:22 PM.
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    Bostick Racing Engines six-oh-nine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Not to split hairs here, But I guess the one piece all alumn, non layered mains and rods rod bearings used in top fuel engines are really just bushings. By definition. I can buy that.
    Thank you!
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Not to split hairs here, But I guess the one piece all alumn, non layered main and rod rod bearings used in top fuel engines are really just bushings. So by definition, a piece of seamless tubing coated with babbitt goes from a bushing to a bearing with the addition of the babitt? Even it was still installed in the small end of a rod? I can buy that. You're right, it is splitting hairs. But interestingly, Isky never calls it a bushing in any articles or ads. Probably totally different material than Crowers, or the rolling action uses a different physics that is more advantagous to bearing than a bushing.

    Geez 6-0-9, you had a much better sense of humor on your LS thread. that was a sense of humor wasn't it?
    No need to edit your post on my account.

    I appreciate all that you have to offer.

    Thank you!
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    Excessive lash, restricters in the oil galleys that feed the lifters if it is in a low rpm or excessively long idling motor(not enough oil squeezing out past the lifter to lube the needle bearing or lifter bore), not enough spring pressure that allows valve float, or a poorly designed cam with lousy ramps, or last but not least: winging the motor at first startup before the needle bearing is fully oiled, are the main reasons for roller lifter failure. I have a friend(NOT a customer! that allways wings his motors on startup, cold or hot, and he replaces more destroyed roller cams and lifters than anyone else that I have ever heard of. Me, I've been running solid rollers in my street cars,drag cars, and boats since about 1982 and have never hurt a roller lifter or cam. I have also milled a .030 groove from the oil band down to the side of the lifter right next to the wheel on all of my lifters since then too. Don't ask me why, it just seemed the thing to do to help oil them. I figured the slots were cheap insurance because I always run a crank scraper in conjunction with a good windage tray on everything and realized that I had less throw-off oil to lube the cam/lifters. Remember, I tend to over think things.... I quit doing that when Comp started selling them that way only with an angled slot, and then the newer ones have an edm'ed pressure feed hole to the axle. I have considered the bushing type lifters when the factory rep was pushing them, but since I have never had a failure, I see no reason to even try them. I am experimenting with bushing-type shaft mount rockers now, been running them all season so far (Phoenix,AZ area- long season) with no failures on them either in my lakeboat. Keep using whatever works for you. Just some random thoughts..... TIMINATOR
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