Fiberglass over stringers for wood to show thru
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Fiberglass over stringers for wood to show thru

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    Senior Member holorinhal's Avatar
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    Default Fiberglass over stringers for wood to show thru

    I have asked this question many times, but can not seem to get a clear diffinitive answer. The stringers will be in a Eliminator daytona.
    I would like to know how many layers os fiberglass is enough to have structural intgrity, and still alow the wood to show clear thru the glass. If I were to use 1708, how many layers would be sufficient? If I were to use CSM and cloth, how many layers would be sufficient? If any one could walk me thru the process to achieve the clear wood look. The glass that was on the original stringers was about 1/8" thick.
    How many layers does it take to achive 1/8"? I do not want to use epoxy, i just want to stick with Polyester.
    Below is a picture of Kjells Daytona and this is what I want to achive.


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    Senior Member OFFSHORE GINGER's Avatar
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    Hal, i always go with three layers of # 17 oz Bi -Ax , S or E , glass ( staggered ) when doing stringers but in your case two will be just fine or sufficient and in my opinion i feel that using # 1708 is not a very good choice of fabric when trying to acheive the look you desire because of the CSM , which often or sometimes prevents clarity for the look that you really are trying to acheive . Just my 2 cents which is three cents short of a nickel .
    Last edited by OFFSHORE GINGER; 10-16-2012 at 08:06 AM.

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    Senior Member spectralen's Avatar
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    Default Stringers

    I have done a ton of this work over the last two years on my project and got a pretty good grip on how to get that look.
    I used a chopped mat first, then as it sets up to where it's not moveable but still tacky, I use the biaxle cloth that has a mat on the back side. After that sets up, put down another biaxle. The biaxle cloth needs to be wetted out on a board upside down first, then take the piece off the board and position it on the stringer. Use a roller to work out the air bubbles to get that clear wood look that you want. If the glass is bumpy, you can always sand out the bumps when it dries and lay down some resin to shine it up again.
    There is so much I'm leaving out, but remember, if it dries before the next piece of glass gets to go on, it must be sanded with a 36 grit. Knowing how much material you can work, with the allowed time of the resin pot life is the key to making everything come out nice.

    I picked up a West Systems instruction brochure at West Marine. I think it was free. They are all about epoxy, not polyester, but the applications are pretty much the same.
    Lenny.
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    Senior Member OFFSHORE GINGER's Avatar
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    Hal maybe i am wrong but it looks like Kjell used epoxy on his boat ,and if you were to use .........Epoxy and go with two layers of fabric using #17 oz Bi-Ax along with adding one layer of finish fabric to top everything off making your layup that much nicer ( pretty ) i feel you would be more then happy with the results considering you would be getting the structural integrity that is necessary along with the look you want.
    Last edited by OFFSHORE GINGER; 10-16-2012 at 11:06 AM.

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    Senior Member spectralen's Avatar
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    Default Poly

    Go with the Polyester. It'll look great.

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    Senior Member holorinhal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OFFSHORE GINGER View Post
    Hal maybe i am wrong but it looks like Kjell used epoxy on his boat ,and if you were to use .........Epoxy and go with two layers of fabric using #17 oz Bi-Ax along with adding one layer of finish fabric to top everything off making your layup that much nicer ( pretty ) i feel you would be more then happy with the results considering you would be getting the structural integrity that is necessary along with the look you want.
    Artie, Kjell has stated in his thread that his boat was laid up with polyester. The stringers and floors have been flowcoated. I thing for a typical layup, GS marine uses polyester, wether it is iso or ortho, fot the daytonas, unless the customer specifies otherwise. I just have not been able to get any one to hay exactly how many layers are on the stringers. My daytona had 1/8" thick glass on th stringers and on the balsa core floors. The outer layer was a finnish cloth and te wood was transparent. How many layers build 1/8"
    Artie, in Your opinion which is the easiest to work with for a long layup like a stringer.
    I would really like to stick with polyester , for the fact that I really dont want to have to work with two non compatible materials and the cost factor of the epoxy.
    I will be laying up one layer of 1708 inside the sponsons and on the bulk heads and tabbings, and matt /poly, to layup the balsa core on top of the tunnels. If i were to use epoxy for the stringers, I could do all the poly layup first and then the stringer layup last, like John did on his 21.
    Artie, You are the glass guru, and I do value Your opinion, So If I am using polyester, what laminate schedule with weights , would You use?

    I'm not here for a long time, I'm just here for a good time!
    If your not on the edge.......your taking up too much room......Drive it like you stole it!

    73 KONA Restoration http://www.performanceboats.com//showthread.php?t=10678
    '81 Spectra 20 Facelift http://www.performanceboats.com/user...-facelift.html

    18' Advantage http://www.performanceboats.com/jet-...k-project.html

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    Senior Member holorinhal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spectralen View Post
    I have done a ton of this work over the last two years on my project and got a pretty good grip on how to get that look.
    I used a chopped mat first, then as it sets up to where it's not moveable but still tacky, I use the biaxle cloth that has a mat on the back side. After that sets up, put down another biaxle. The biaxle cloth needs to be wetted out on a board upside down first, then take the piece off the board and position it on the stringer. Use a roller to work out the air bubbles to get that clear wood look that you want. If the glass is bumpy, you can always sand out the bumps when it dries and lay down some resin to shine it up again.
    There is so much I'm leaving out, but remember, if it dries before the next piece of glass gets to go on, it must be sanded with a 36 grit. Knowing how much material you can work, with the allowed time of the resin pot life is the key to making everything come out nice.

    I picked up a West Systems instruction brochure at West Marine. I think it was free. They are all about epoxy, not polyester, but the applications are pretty much the same.
    Lenny.
    Lenny, I have been following Your build over on RD's as I have a spectra that I am doing a facelift on also. You have done a fantastic job. I have done alot of glass work, but I just seem to not be able to get the Idea of how many layers are enough for this type of application. I was reading another thread, where only one layer of 1708, was used with poly, and it just does not seem to be enough. Am I just trying to over engineer?
    Lenny, How many layers did You use on the stringers and bulkheads in the pics above?

    The pics below are of one layer of 1708 and poly.



    Last edited by holorinhal; 10-16-2012 at 07:25 PM.

    I'm not here for a long time, I'm just here for a good time!
    If your not on the edge.......your taking up too much room......Drive it like you stole it!

    73 KONA Restoration http://www.performanceboats.com//showthread.php?t=10678
    '81 Spectra 20 Facelift http://www.performanceboats.com/user...-facelift.html

    18' Advantage http://www.performanceboats.com/jet-...k-project.html

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    Hal, I dont think there is a right or wrong. I know whe I took my stringers out, there was literally 1 layer of fabric holding them in. Going back, I went with 3 layers of 9.5 fabric (no matt) but then I went epoxy which I realize you dont want to do.

    I will say, that by the time we bonded the stringers to the tunnels PRIOR to glassing, you could hit them with a deadblow hammer or walk on them and they didnt budge. The glass just tied it all together and encapsulated them. Certainly not perfect by I'm confident they arent going anywhere.












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    Senior Member spectralen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by holorinhal View Post
    Lenny, I have been following Your build over on RD's as I have a spectra that I am doing a facelift on also. You have done a fantastic job. I have done alot of glass work, but I just seem to not be able to get the Idea of how many layers are enough for this type of application. I was reading another thread, where only one layer of 1708, was used with poly, and it just does not seem to be enough. Am I just trying to over engineer?
    Lenny, How many layers did You use on the stringers and bulkheads in the pics above?

    The pics below are of one layer of 1708 and poly.



    Hal,
    I used a chopped mat first, just heavier than 3/4 oz., then 2 layers of the biaxle. You have to work the roller to get the bubbles out, then let it tack up. Then apply the next layer, otherwise, the two cloths will trap air and they won't want to roll out. I can see some of that in your pics. Don't feel bad , I too have some in my early work but have since gotten better. It's mainly cosmetic I have been told.
    All your questions are the same ones I had when I started. Your own two hands will give you your best answers.
    The guys at the fiberglass supply place told me that any resin over the glass to where you can not feel the fabric is wasted resin. So, to get the look of the flow coat you are risking making it crack because there will be no glass to reenforce the gel. It does look cool though.
    Check out Cliff's thread called New to spectra marine on riverdaves. He pretty much gave me all the knowledge to get started that I needed.
    Lenny

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    Hal , if you review post #2 it explains what i normally do for a stringer layup which is the same layup schedule Skater uses on stringers with the exception of vacuum bagging which also is the same layup schedule we used when building Fountains , Cigs , and Platinums ......which is three layers of # 17 oz Bi Ax , S or E glass . Hal , to tell you the truth .........i honestly forgot to mention ( brain fart ) that John used three layers of 9.5 oz in his layup which by the way looks awsome , and do you really feel you are over Engineering because i have always liked the idea of a little more beef where needed which may be old school put something i have done for years now, and most likely will keep doing because old habits are hard to break . Hal , once again like i mentioned in post # 2 if you were to go with Epoxy , two layers of # 17 oz Bi Ax covered with one layer of either 4, 6 or 8 oz finish fabric means ........only one thing and that is ................you will be getting all the the structural intergrity you want with the look you are trying to achieve , and besides www.uscomposites.com offers there #635 epoxy at a very good price which in the long run means..............maybe just maybe if you were willing to try Epoxy just one time i personally feel you just might never go back to using Poly or Vinyl again for the stank alone ,and the pot life which means more work time but then again , and please everybody do not take this the wrong way because over the years i have seen and repaired a lot of boats manfactured on the West Coast with really light layup's on the stringer systems which have resulted in concern adding more beef or replacment...........Once again just my 2 cents .
    Last edited by OFFSHORE GINGER; 10-17-2012 at 07:44 PM.

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    Hal ,in post #7 you posted pics of a stringer with one layer of #1708 and Poly Bond ( blue ) being used for the fillet and just by chance tell me that is not your boat because the CSM or chop strand mat near the fillet seems to be somewhat dry ( white / dry chop ) among a few other things .
    Last edited by OFFSHORE GINGER; 10-17-2012 at 07:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrork View Post

    a bunch of siiiick looking fiberglass pix


    it looks like you just poured resin over everything and no glass... how in the hell did you get it to look SOOOO smooth!!? awesome pictures...
    Last edited by ka0tyk; 10-17-2012 at 05:38 PM.

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    Senior Member holorinhal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OFFSHORE GINGER View Post
    Hal , if you review post #2 it explains what i normally do for a stringer layup which is the same layup schedule Skater uses on stringers with the exception of vacuum bagging which also is the same layup schedule we used when building Fountains , Cigs , and Platinums ......which is three layers of # 17 oz Bi Ax , S or E glass . Hal , to tell you the truth .........i honestly forgot to mention ( brain fart ) that John used three layers of 9.5 oz in his layup which by the way looks awsome , and do you really feel you are over Engineering because i have always liked the idea of a little more beef where needed which may be old school put something i have done for years now, and most likely will keep doing because old habits are hard to break . Hal , once again like i mentioned in post # 2 if you were to go with Epoxy , two layers of # 17 oz Bi Ax covered with one layer of either 4, 6 or 8 oz finish fabric will give you the structural intergrity you want with the look you are trying to achieve , and besides www.uscomposites.com offers there #635 epoxy at a very good price which in the long run means..............maybe just maybe if you were willing to try Epoxy just one time i personally feel you just might never go back to using Poly or Vinyl again for the stank alone ,and the pot life which means more work time but then again , and please everybody do not take this the wrong way because over the years i have seen and repaired a lot of boats manfactured on the West Coast with really light layup's on the stringer systems which have resulted in concern adding more beef or replacment...........Once again just my 2 cents .
    Quote Originally Posted by OFFSHORE GINGER View Post
    Hal ,in post #7 you posted pics of a stringer with one layer of #1708 and Poly Bond ( blue ) being used for the fillet and just by chance tell me that is not your boat because the CSM or chop strand matt near the fillet seems to be somewhat dry ( white / dry chop ) among a few other things .
    Guys, The pics above is not of My work. It is of another members project. I was just showing a pic that only had one layer of 1708 ( 17 oz biaxial with 08 oz(3/4oz)stich back mat.) over the stringer, and was asking if one layer was not enough. How many layers of 1708 would be enough with poly resin?

    I'm not here for a long time, I'm just here for a good time!
    If your not on the edge.......your taking up too much room......Drive it like you stole it!

    73 KONA Restoration http://www.performanceboats.com//showthread.php?t=10678
    '81 Spectra 20 Facelift http://www.performanceboats.com/user...-facelift.html

    18' Advantage http://www.performanceboats.com/jet-...k-project.html

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    Senior Member OFFSHORE GINGER's Avatar
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    Hal , once again two layers of # 1708 will be sufficient , and if by chance you would like to make everything look a little nicer / cleaner , add a layer of finish fabric .for that added touch .

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