High Flow Dynamics Oil pump
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High Flow Dynamics Oil pump

  1. #1
    Resident Ford Nut Sleeper CP's Avatar
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    Default High Flow Dynamics Oil pump

    Thanks to Paul Kane....Stage II oil pump.

    As discussed in another thread ( oil filter thread) the 565 was down on oil psi after replacing my Mellings HV oil pump with the Kaase oil pump. WOT ( off the Nos @ 6,200) psi dropped from the typical 65+ to 52 psi. After a couple of conversations with Paul Kane he came up with a solution, so I got him my oil pan for fitting purposes and he went to work:


    Paul built one of his Stage II Melling high volume pumps with adjustable psi set screw with a 1" pick-up tube.







    Paul and I think that just the addition of his pick-up tube would have helped/resolved the problem with the Kaase pump, actually the issue isn't the pump but the pick-up tube that Stef's supplied with the oil pan. It might work just fine for a 1/4 mile drag car but wasn't up to the task in the boat engine.

    I think Paul told me we have approx 7 sq in of screen area with the new pick-up. ( I'll double check that or he can correct me on the numbers)

    I'll bolt it in the engine today if I have time.

    Thanks Paul.......................

    S CP
    Last edited by Sleeper CP; 05-20-2012 at 09:44 AM.

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    www.highflowdynamics.com LakesOnly's Avatar
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    Cool

    Well....thank you, Jon.

    A couple of thoughts and a couple of points:

    • Most oil pan manufacturers (not just Stef's) make a 0.750" OD oil pump pickup tube for their Ford 385 Series oil pans. In the sustained upper rpm engine applications a 0.750" OD pickup tube is not only inadequate for an HV pump but it is also inadequate for a std volume pump when the pickup tube is so long as in the rear sump marine applications on the Ford. In short, the pickup tube itself can be a restriction in the upper rpm range. It ought not be so small in diameter; the pump is what dictates the rate of draw and the tube is only a vehicle to get the oil from the pan to the pump; make sure it can feed all the oil that the pump wants.
    • While I do agree that a pickup tube with a diameter larger than 0.750" would help feed the std volume pump in Jon's engine, his particular engine combo would ultimately still suffer oil pressure woes with most any std volume pump when he is on the N20 at high rpm for such a long time. In that regard the HV pump/pickup combo ought to address the last of his oil pressure concerns.
    • When it comes to the Stage 2 pump we furnished there is more to it (internally) than meets the eye; it's not just the pickup tube diameter.

    ______________________


    (Because I wondered if some might comment on the perforated screen on the pickup box: ) Our first, earliest pickup boxes were fabbed of 1-1/2" box tubing 4 inches in length. The machined window in the 4-inch long pickup boxes allowed for 3-1/2 square inches of perforated screen for the oil to pass through into the pickup box. I took a pin gauge to the holes in the screen of the original pickup box design, calculated the area of each hole, then multiplied by the number of holes to get total open area, and the amount of hole area in the screen was 110% of the pickup tube ID. They worked fine.

    We started getting calls from truck puller guys who run their engines at very high rpms, so our standard pickup box length was increased from 4 inches to 4-1/2 inches. The 4-1/2 long pickup boxes have 4 square inches of perforated screen and those pickup kits support 80+ psi to 8500+ rpm for the truck pullers.

    Soooooo....while the 4-inches of perforated screen are proven to allow plenty of oil at 8500 rpm with an HV pump, the domed, round pickup box used in Jon's pickup tube has a whopping 7 square inches of screen area (that's double the original pickup box screen area). If 4-square inches of performated screen works to 8500 rpm, then 7 square inches ought to work easily as high as a 385 Series would ever be revved....and well beyond. The perforated screen in Jon's pickup box has 70% more hole area than the ID of his pickup tube. By the way the only reason we went with the round dome on Jon's setup was to accomodate a round hole that was already cut in his windage tray for his original pickup; the 4-1/2 inch long pickup boxes continue to be our standard pickup box.

    LO
    Last edited by LakesOnly; 05-21-2012 at 12:07 AM.
    High Flow Dynamics
    Performance Components for the 429/460 Engine Family


    This post © Copyright 2007-2017 Paul Kane. No copying, linking, printing or otherwise without express written permission.

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    The mounting base on the kaase pump is much thicker...nice piece

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeper CP View Post
    Thanks to Paul Kane....Stage II oil pump.

    As discussed in another thread ( oil filter thread) the 565 was down on oil psi after replacing my Mellings HV oil pump with the Kaase oil pump. WOT ( off the Nos @ 6,200) psi dropped from the typical 65+ to 52 psi. After a couple of conversations with Paul Kane he came up with a solution, so I got him my oil pan for fitting purposes and he went to work:


    Paul built one of his Stage II Melling high volume pumps with adjustable psi set screw with a 1" pick-up tube.







    Paul and I think that just the addition of his pick-up tube would have helped/resolved the problem with the Kaase pump, actually the issue isn't the pump but the pick-up tube that Stef's supplied with the oil pan. It might work just fine for a 1/4 mile drag car but wasn't up to the task in the boat engine.

    I think Paul told me we have approx 7 sq in of screen area with the new pick-up. ( I'll double check that or he can correct me on the numbers)

    I'll bolt it in the engine today if I have time.

    Thanks Paul.......................

    S CP
    Why not just go back to the Melling pump?
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcomp View Post
    Why not just go back to the Melling pump?

    Paul built one of his Stage II Melling high volume pumps with adjustable psi set screw with a 1" pick-up tube


    Paul's stage two pump might be a bit over-kill ...pretty sure his stage 1 with the over-size pick-up would have done the trick.


    S CP
    Last edited by Sleeper CP; 05-21-2012 at 05:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by havasubyou View Post
    The mounting base on the kaase pump is much thicker...nice piece
    Kaase built those for the truck pullers .... 8,000 rpm's and bouncing like crazy. They tend to destroy stock pumps ...... either the bouncing or harmonics from the rpm it just kills the stock style pumps.


    S CP

    "Dark Sarcasm"
    Going fast is only half the fun ... what you make go
    fast is the other half.
    " A Government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take away everything you have"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeper CP View Post


    Paul's stage two pump might be a bit over-kill ...pretty sure his stage 1 with the over-size pick-up would have done the trick.


    S CP
    Was the original Melling not satisfactory, and why you went to the Kaase pump? It sounded like it had plenty of prssure. Just wondering why the change.
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.

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    gn7
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    I have to tell you Steel, the first time I ever saw a Kaase pump I thought "oh yeah, if I ever build a BBF, thats the pump I am using" Simply because I know the crap a oil pump, specially a Ford pump hanging out there, goes thru in a boat. The Kaase pump is stout. Now that I have learned its a stock volume pump, and evidently marginal in a sustained RPM marine application, I not so sure. Funny, the same basic gerotor package in a 351W, with the same main size and close to the same rod pin size its fine. Me thinks it may have something to do with the 385 oiling path, but not sure.
    I think I would be tempted to go with an external pump if I was running a 385 in a severe application.



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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcomp View Post
    Was the original Melling not satisfactory, and why you went to the Kaase pump? It sounded like it had plenty of prssure. Just wondering why the change.

    went with the Kaase pump because I had heard good info about it. I didn't realize the pump was standard volume at the time. The Kaase pump might be fine in my application with a larger pick-up tube and if I didn't run two external filters and a cooler.

    The standard out of the box Mellings HV's have worked fine in the past, but at the price of one of Paul's blue-printed oil pumps I up-graded.

    S CP

    "Dark Sarcasm"
    Going fast is only half the fun ... what you make go
    fast is the other half.
    " A Government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take away everything you have"

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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    I have to tell you Steel, the first time I ever saw a Kaase pump I thought "oh yeah, if I ever build a BBF, thats the pump I am using" Simply because I know the crap a oil pump, specially a Ford pump hanging out there, goes thru in a boat. The Kaase pump is stout. Now that I have learned its a stock volume pump, and evidently marginal in a sustained RPM marine application, I not so sure. Funny, the same basic gerotor package in a 351W, with the same main size and close to the same rod pin size its fine. Me thinks it may have something to do with the 385 oiling path, but not sure.
    I think I would be tempted to go with an external pump if I was running a 385 in a severe application.
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeper CP View Post
    went with the Kaase pump because I had heard good info about it. I didn't realize the pump was standard volume at the time. The Kaase pump might be fine in my application with a larger pick-up tube and if I didn't run two external filters and a cooler.

    The standard out of the box Mellings HV's have worked fine in the past, but at the price of one of Paul's blue-printed oil pumps I up-graded.

    S CP
    OK, cool...that makes sense. Thanks.
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.

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    www.highflowdynamics.com LakesOnly's Avatar
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    Cool More answers:

    Some answers to posts above:

    The original HV pump that was in Sleeper's engine was a front sump-style pump body, not a reaar sump-style pump body. Not only do the rear sump style pump bodies load the oil better than the front sump pumps but the front sump pumps are technically an inferior pump by design for a couple of reasons. We will refurbish and upgrade Sleeper's front sump HV pump for another lesser build he has on the horizon, but it will not be going into his 900hp 565 engine again, regardless of it's previous performance.

    Yes, a Stage 1 prepped rear sump pump with a properly sized pickup tube would have indeed been adequate. Our Stage 2 Kits have supported numerous cars running mid 6's @ 220 mph and supported ~2100-2400 hp and I feel confidently can support more hp in a drag racing application. So at first glance the Stage 2 Kit may be considered overkill for his application but remember that the aformentioned capabilites of the setup are for just 1/4 mile bursts. For Sleeper's application of 900 hp sustained it's not necessarily innapropriate once tuned for the build. The Stage 2 Kit's versatility is one of its attributes.

    To reiterate, this thread is not to knock any specific pickup tube....nor is it to knock Kaase's or any other manufacturer's oil pump. We're all on the same team here and the way I see it, it's great that Ford enthusiast's have a variety of oil pumps available depending on the needs of the engine combination and application in question. Just like dished/flat/dome top pistons, flat tappet cams/roller cams, single plane/dual plane intake manifolds, etc, we also have oil pump options for optimizing an engine combination.

    LO
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    This post © Copyright 2007-2017 Paul Kane. No copying, linking, printing or otherwise without express written permission.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeper CP View Post
    Kaase built those for the truck pullers .... 8,000 rpm's and bouncing like crazy. They tend to destroy stock pumps ...... either the bouncing or harmonics from the rpm it just kills the stock style pumps.


    S CP
    I think i would of had your guy go thru the haase pump and blueprint it,looks like a much better piece and i bet the gears inside of it are a better quality then the melling. Lots of truck pullers around here, love to here a big inch motor pulling against that much weight on the sled.
    always nice to see the nice stuff you are running in that bbf

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    Quote Originally Posted by havasubyou View Post
    I think i would of had your guy go thru the haase pump and blueprint it,looks like a much better piece and i bet the gears inside of it are a better quality then the melling. Lots of truck pullers around here, love to here a big inch motor pulling against that much weight on the sled.
    always nice to see the nice stuff you are running in that bbf
    Well I'm not going to throw the Kaase pump away. Paul will blueprint it but as a standard volume pump with gears 25% smaller than a HV pump it will never pump as much oil as a HV. Particularly once the oil gets hot and thins out. That is where the HV has the advantage.

    S CP

    "Dark Sarcasm"
    Going fast is only half the fun ... what you make go
    fast is the other half.
    " A Government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take away everything you have"

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