EFI engine temp guage placement
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EFI engine temp guage placement

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    AAARRRRRGGGGGGG!!!!! Motomatt68's Avatar
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    Default EFI engine temp guage placement

    If you are running a raw water cooling system where do you put the engine temperature sensor for the ecu? Can you use the oil temp?

    Thanks, Matt.

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    Senior Member ap67et10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motomatt68 View Post
    If you are running a raw water cooling system where do you put the engine temperature sensor for the ecu? Can you use the oil temp?

    Thanks, Matt.

    I run my coolant temp sensor from the cylinder head, my gauge sensor is in the other head.

    If its an aftermarket ECU then the temp curve is fully programmable. So if full operating temp is 135. then you can have closed loop engagement at say 100 if you want. Then you can set cold start enrichment on a progression from say 20 degrees (any value below where you would ever fire the engine up in) up to 100 gradually pulling fuel as temp increases. Its all trial and error, if one day you fire up the boat and it is too lean and struggling at 110 then maybe you just bump cold start enrichment settings up to accommodate. This would be the same scenario for oil temp reading acting as coolant. Really it makes no difference, but I'd rather use coolant. Depending on what system you are using, you can also add oil temp as and aux. input that can also be used to modify fuel volume calculations slightly.

    For example: say you have been running hard then shut it down for 15 min. you fire it back up and oil temp is still very hot and coolant is below 100 for the first few min, even though the engine is still fully warm. You can program for reduced fuel if oil temp is above a set value while coolant is below a set value. Now the only reason you would do something like this is if you found that after a short off period, when you fire it back up it goes too rich due to seeming like its cooled off too much. You can get as picky as you want with EFI. If you so much as feel a slight hesitation or hiccup, it can be tuned out.

    I say all that to say....it doesn't matter what you use, since you will be telling it what every sensor means and the parameters it should be compensating within.


    Andrew
    Last edited by ap67et10; 06-17-2012 at 08:04 PM.

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    AAARRRRRGGGGGGG!!!!! Motomatt68's Avatar
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    I have an EZ EFI and I am unable to change the temp settings. The computer setting is 140. I have been running a closed cooling system with a heat exchanger so coolant temp hasn't been an issue.

    Matt.

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    Senior Member ap67et10's Avatar
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    Ah geez....just another reason why the self learn, "simple" efi systems (in my opinion) are garbage. They are so so limited on user adjustability.

    If you cannot adjust the closed loop temp threshold below 140....or at all, then I'd probably run oil temp. for the coolant temp input. It's going to be more stable for a system like that.

    You will also probably want to stay away from super thick oils or super thin. I would go with something in the 15-40 range, but I'd be best to monitor the oil temp and the time it take to warm up, if it warms quickly and gets very hot then step it up or get a cooler for it. My guess is there will be over temp tuning failsafes built in, so even though oil temp is fine in the 240 range...coolant is not and you may get adverse running results if the oil reaches that temp (since the PCM will think that's from the coolant and try to do things to bring that temp down).

    Oil should work best, but still might take some tweaking to the oils you use or whether you use a cooler or not. Definitely more stable for that system though.


    Andrew

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    I would put it in the same place the factory sending unit goes. Should be in the head?


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    I have AFR heads and can't find a port. I am going to check the block tomorrow morning when I get some time and see if there is an acceptable place there.

    I agree that the adaptive learning systems leave something to be desired but it works well in the right application and when I got it I just wanted to use the boat. I have thought about trying to adapt a mega squirt ecu using the parts I have now but up until now I have not had a problem so I never got around to it.

    Matt.

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    gn7
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    Aren't self learning EFI units just carbs that know too much?



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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Aren't self learning EFI units just carbs that know too much?

    Yes, they are just TBI systems with O2, IAT, and CTS sensors. Basically.


    However, there are some multiport self-learners out there. I know Holley has one; not sure who else.




    Would a thermostat housing or waterneck spacer with 3/8 npt port work?
    Last edited by FormulaZR; 06-18-2012 at 11:00 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by FormulaZR View Post
    Yes, they are just TBI systems with O2, IAT, and CTS sensors. Basically.


    However, there are some multiport self-learners out there. I know Holley has one; not sure who else.




    Would a thermostat housing or waterneck spacer with 3/8 npt port work?


    These systems are super annoying to me. The most annoying part are the "TUNERS" that are popping up installing these systems for people. I talked to a "TUNER" (supposedly "The guy to talk to" where I now live) and I was blown away by the stupidity that spewed from this guys mouth! He basically told me that the only thing that needs to be set is the target AFR. (this is how a self learn system works) He never mentioned the VE table, or tuning during open loop. He just set target and he is done!! To ensure ANY engine will run its VERY best during ANY possible scenario requires the VE table and open loop tune be as correct as possible for a given setup. Part of determining open or closed loop situations has to do with the environment of the engine itself. The fact that coolant closed loop threshold cannot be adjusted is proof that the EZ efi was only designed for automotive application. Its the manufactures way of telling you, you are too stupid to adjust anything on your own and based on the knowledge of some of the "TUNERS" I have met.....they are right! some people just shouldn't be messing with stuff.

    I'm not specifically talking about anyone here, but its really been the progression of aftermarket efi since its inception. aftermarket efi has been beaten down hard due to the stupidity of some people that said they could "tune". Lots of engines lost in the process, so the manufactures had to come up with a way to make it EZ EFI! So stupid people could do less damage to the manufactures reputation.

    Clearly this is a bit of an issue for the lake water cooling in a boat, since you can't make any kind of adjustment you want....you are limited to adjustments the manufacture deems stupid proof. Just use the oil temp as coolant input, it'll work better for this specific situation.


    ok....i think i'm done....


    Andrew

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    Quote Originally Posted by ap67et10 View Post
    These systems are super annoying to me. The most annoying part are the "TUNERS" that are popping up installing these systems for people. I talked to a "TUNER" (supposedly "The guy to talk to" where I now live) and I was blown away by the stupidity that spewed from this guys mouth! He basically told me that the only thing that needs to be set is the target AFR. (this is how a self learn system works) He never mentioned the VE table, or tuning during open loop. He just set target and he is done!! To ensure ANY engine will run its VERY best during ANY possible scenario requires the VE table and open loop tune be as correct as possible for a given setup. Part of determining open or closed loop situations has to do with the environment of the engine itself. The fact that coolant closed loop threshold cannot be adjusted is proof that the EZ efi was only designed for automotive application. Its the manufactures way of telling you, you are too stupid to adjust anything on your own and based on the knowledge of some of the "TUNERS" I have met.....they are right! some people just shouldn't be messing with stuff.

    I'm not specifically talking about anyone here, but its really been the progression of aftermarket efi since its inception. aftermarket efi has been beaten down hard due to the stupidity of some people that said they could "tune". Lots of engines lost in the process, so the manufactures had to come up with a way to make it EZ EFI! So stupid people could do less damage to the manufactures reputation.

    Clearly this is a bit of an issue for the lake water cooling in a boat, since you can't make any kind of adjustment you want....you are limited to adjustments the manufacture deems stupid proof. Just use the oil temp as coolant input, it'll work better for this specific situation.


    ok....i think i'm done....


    Andrew
    Your rant doesn't apply just to self learn systems. Sadly, I've seen a lot of that with systems that have infinite control over almost every parameter.


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    I Installed mine in the oil pan, it now reads oil temp. there was no way it was going to work correctly in the cooling system in my application
    #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw View Post
    I Installed mine in the oil pan, it now reads oil temp. there was no way it was going to work correctly in the cooling system in my application
    I suppose I didn't think about that. I have a closed cooling system; so I forget that most boats aren't like that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by FormulaZR View Post
    I suppose I didn't think about that. I have a closed cooling system; so I forget that most boats aren't like that.
    I have full control of the parameters but after sitting for a few minutes my coolant temp drops below 100, Oil temp is just the better way of doing it for me and probably
    most open cooling systems IMO,

    sometimes I boat in COLD water and sometimes in warm water, makes a big difference in engine temps
    Last edited by Outlaw; 06-18-2012 at 01:21 PM.
    #55

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    I always think in terms of what can be done using the megasquirt systems. I often forget how limited just about every other system is in what can be done. Ultimately I can make any input do anything I want it to or have multiple inputs combine to create a variety of scenario's to output any action I wish them to. whether that be having specific readings create outputs of grounds or power, change timing, cut timing, add boost or limit boost (turbo) add fuel or remove it....anything! I recently setup a car to use idle controlled timing. It allows me to do away with any IAC and still maintain perfect idle speed for any given temp. So cold start ramps up rpm and brings it down as it warms up. If the idle pulls away from target by 50 rpms it'll adjust timing to meet the target. This results in idle control that is only matched by a modern car! The capabilities of a megasquirt system far exceed the skill of just about any tuner.


    Andrew

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