Curious... oil pan questions?
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 14 of 69

Thread:
Curious... oil pan questions?

  1. #1
    Resident Ford Nut Sleeper CP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Diego County
    Posts
    10,072

    Default Curious... oil pan questions?

    A few oil pan questions:

    Old:



    New:





    So after a weld repair on a leaking bead by The Bostick I got the oil pan back on the engine, yet again. Checked for leaks this evening .....all is well so it will get dropped back in the boat this week: A clean shop vac set on reverse and a bottle of soap and water works just great checking for leaks after putting the pan back on. Passed inspection


    Before I put the new pan back on the engine I put the two pans side by side and took some measurements and pictures. We'll see if I can get this thing to maintain oil pressure. After the last trip with the new pump and pick-up the oil psi was better than before. It would hold 56-58 psi at 4,000 at 225* it would that to 4,500 and then it would take a dive when I stood on it.

    Talked to a couple friends at the river, including Bostick, they all said "pull a couple qrts out of it, sounds like a windage issue, and see what happens" It had the oil leak on Sunday morning, so I never got around to doing it ( pulling two qrts) to see what it would do.

    I found the dyno sheet from when the engine was at Westech and it had great oil psi during all the dyno pulls. I called Steve and talked to him about it and he said " pull two quarts of oil from it" Well when it was on the dyno we had 8 qrts in the pan ( 12 qrt pan) in the boat I've been running 10 qrts like I always did with the Dooley's. Steve reminded me to set the pan on the floor at 4-5* as it would sit in the boat and mark the dip-stick. He also said he see's this all the time with big oil pans. There are lots of 12 qrt pans out there running around with 8-9 qrts in them. So I've re-marked the dip-stick at 7 qrts and 8 qrts. I've going to start with 7 in the pan, 9 total in the system vs what I use to run for a total of 12 qrts and see what happens. Then I'll add a qrt and see what happens at 8 qrts. I just hope the oil doesn't get to hot with less volume.

    What we saw on the dyno with 8 qrts of 15-50 Mobil 1:


    What do you think is happening in this pan that it can't run with 10 qrts in it like I ran in the Dooley's? Actually I'm assuming running just 7 or 8 qrts will work, if it doesn't the pan will come off an sit on the shelf. I'll know in a couple of weeks. The newer pan would seem to have more/better features to control the oil, both pans have a lip at the back of the pan to keep the oil from sloshing up the back under hard acceleration, the new pan has more volume with the kick-out and is approximately 3" wider.
    this has truly been a case of " it if isn't broke don't fix it" for me. Just one more thing and I'm done and back to using the old pan. hopefully the reduction in oil volume will fix the pressure issue.

    Thoughts ??? and keep it constructive please.
    I'll post a few more pictures of the internals tomorrow.

    S CP

    Jon
    Last edited by Sleeper CP; 07-23-2012 at 08:17 AM.

    "Dark Sarcasm"
    Going fast is only half the fun ... what you make go
    fast is the other half.
    " A Government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take away everything you have"
    Quick reply to this message Reply  

  2. Remove Advertisements
    PerformanceBoats.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    steelcomp was here
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    n/e TN
    Posts
    26,280

    Default

    Jon,
    Which is the front and rear on the steel pan?
    Never mind...we're looking at the rear of the pans, correct? (I hope so)
    Last edited by scott foxwell; 07-23-2012 at 08:56 AM.
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.
    Quick reply to this message Reply  

  4. #3
    Resident Ford Nut Sleeper CP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Diego County
    Posts
    10,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by steelcomp View Post
    Jon,
    Which is the front and rear on the steel pan?

    Oh come on Scott,

    You should know what side of the pan rail has the kick-out for the oil pump on a big block Ford.
    Both pans are facing the same direction. Rear of pan is closest to the camera. bottom pic of steel pan you can see the trap door at the rear of pan.

    Keep in mind the solid tray in the steel pan bolts to the main caps

    Jon

    "Dark Sarcasm"
    Going fast is only half the fun ... what you make go
    fast is the other half.
    " A Government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take away everything you have"
    Quick reply to this message Reply  

  5. Remove Advertisements
    PerformanceBoats.com
    Advertisements
     

  6. #4
    Bostick Racing Engines six-oh-nine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    El Cajon, Ca.
    Posts
    1,063

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by steelcomp View Post
    Jon,
    Which is the front and rear on the steel pan?
    Never mind...we're looking at the rear of the pans, correct? (I hope so)
    Since it's a Ford... I'd assume the part closest is the rear and part further away is the front... just based on the shape of the pan rails and what remains of the original factory pan.
    The Bostick®

    Some people play hard to get... I play hard to want.
    Quick reply to this message Reply  

  7. #5
    Senior Member GT Jets's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Morgan Hill
    Posts
    2,234

    Default

    Sleeper,

    You made a funny comment and I wanted to, well, make a comment

    You said "I just hope the oil doesn't get to hot with less volume." Really?

    If the oil is being aerated by windage it is turning to foam anyways, which is why you are losing OP, foaming oil does not pump for shizzle. Also that being said, you cannot cool down foaming oil, the air insulates it and keeps it nice and toasty. Viscosity will break down to a point of Vodka.

    This is going to sound stupid, but I don't like that mesh screen in there, the openings look way too small to me, not to mention it looks as though it is installed the wrong way, you shouldn't be able to see through it looking down on it...You can. This could cause the aeration to gain momentum and begin to vortex the oil into a mist.

    I would like to see a larger opening in the mesh and have it direct the windage edit; away from the sump.

    In my haste to post I made an error. I was in a hurry to get a cup of Starbucks...


    Just a humble Internet experts opinion.
    Last edited by GT Jets; 07-23-2012 at 10:21 AM.
    GT


    Quote Originally Posted by Quickjet View Post
    Put a 300 on the back of it, Flywheel it and a nosecone. $15,000 later you'll have a 65 mph pile of shit......
    Quick reply to this message Reply  

  8. #6
    Senior Member GT Jets's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Morgan Hill
    Posts
    2,234

    Default

    To add to my previous statement, I believe the mesh is creating a vacuum so to speak on the sump at higher RPM making the trap harder to feed.

    If the "louvers" were faced toward the windage, it would be pressurized.

    All this is tricky to try and explain without talking with your hands....Is there an app for that?

    GT


    Quote Originally Posted by Quickjet View Post
    Put a 300 on the back of it, Flywheel it and a nosecone. $15,000 later you'll have a 65 mph pile of shit......
    Quick reply to this message Reply  

  9. #7
    Resident Ford Nut Sleeper CP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Diego County
    Posts
    10,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GT Jets View Post
    Sleeper,

    You made a funny comment and I wanted to, well, make a comment

    You said "I just hope the oil doesn't get to hot with less volume." Really?

    If the oil is being aerated by windage it is turning to foam anyways, which is why you are losing OP, foaming oil does not pump for shizzle. Also that being said, you cannot cool down foaming oil, the air insulates it and keeps it nice and toasty. Viscosity will break down to a point of Vodka.
    The oil psi drop is nearly instantaneous; running at 58 psi at 4,000, smash the throttle to the floor psi drops as tach passes 5,000. I don't think there is much time to foam the oil at the snap of a finger? If the oil was already foamed wouldn't the psi be crap at 4,500? The oil temps were in-line as to what I've seen over the past 18 years. So something tells me it's not a foamy issue....but I've been wrong before



    Quote Originally Posted by GT Jets View Post
    This is going to sound stupid, but I don't like that mesh screen in there, the openings look way too small to me, not to mention it looks as though it is installed the wrong way, you shouldn't be able to see through it looking down on it...You can. This could cause the aeration to gain momentum and begin to vortex the oil into a mist.

    I would like to see a larger opening in the mesh and have it direct the windage :
    If the mesh were the problem then why didn't this show-up on the dyno? It not only held good psi during the dyno pulls but as Steve was "driving" it on the dyno a few quick hits from 4,000 - 6,000 this wasn't a problem? In the boat the psi drops nearly instantly as I hit the gas.

    I've been asked if I thought it could be a drain-back issue. It didn't happen on the dyno, it holds great psi at 4,000-4,500 rpm for miles and miles on the river and once again the psi drops as soon as the throttle is smashed.

    S CP
    Last edited by Sleeper CP; 07-23-2012 at 02:15 PM.

    "Dark Sarcasm"
    Going fast is only half the fun ... what you make go
    fast is the other half.
    " A Government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take away everything you have"
    Quick reply to this message Reply  

  10. #8
    Senior Member GT Jets's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Morgan Hill
    Posts
    2,234

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeper CP View Post
    The oil psi drop is nearly instantaneous; running at 58 psi at 4,000, smash the throttle to the floor psi drops as tach passes 5,000. I don't think there is much time to foam the oil at the snap of a finger? If the oil was already foamed wouldn't the psi be crap at 4,500? The oil temps were in-line as to what I've seen over the past 18 years. So something tells me it's not a foamy issue....but I've been wrong before





    If the mesh were the problem then why didn't this show-up on the dyno? It not only held good psi during the dyno pulls but as Steve was "driving" it on the dyno a few quick hits from 4,000 - 6,000 this wasn't a problem? In the boat the psi drops nearly instantly as I hit the gas.

    I've been asked if I thought it could be a drain-back issue. It didn't happen on the dyno, it holds great psi at 4,000-4,500 rpm for miles and miles on the river and once again the psi drops as soon as the throttle is smashed.

    S CP
    If your oil level is at the tray (the tray looks pretty low in the sump IMHO), the windage can create a negative pressure in the trap and starve it for oil, at slower speeds the negative is smaller and fills the trap with little effort. A way to prove it would be to safety wire the door open and test it out. A pain in the ass yes, but may answer some crazy questions. Just keep the sphincter tightening maneuvers to a minimum until the door is operational again...

    Dumb question, but how rigid is your pick up mounted? Is there even a remote chance it could be pulled to the bottom of the pan?

    Dumb question number two........How certain are you of the pressure readings? have they been verified by a second gauge, I call this a dumb question because it only seems to do it with this pan, but curiosity killed the cat.

    Dumb question number three and then I'll need to think up more dumb questions LOL, how easy do the trap doors move, they should be able to be actuated by rocking the pan back and forth and virtually always stay plumb....I have seen them bind and starve the trap for oil. This is especially important if the pans gasket surface is not perfectly true. The rails can distort and bind up the hinge.
    GT


    Quote Originally Posted by Quickjet View Post
    Put a 300 on the back of it, Flywheel it and a nosecone. $15,000 later you'll have a 65 mph pile of shit......
    Quick reply to this message Reply  

  11. #9
    Resident Ford Nut Sleeper CP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Diego County
    Posts
    10,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GT Jets View Post
    If your oil level is at the tray (the tray looks pretty low in the sump IMHO), the windage can create a negative pressure in the trap and starve it for oil, at slower speeds the negative is smaller and fills the trap with little effort. A way to prove it would be to safety wire the door open and test it out. A pain in the ass yes, but may answer some crazy questions. Just keep the sphincter tightening maneuvers to a minimum until the door is operational again...
    .
    I've thought about that tray being close the the oil. The old one bolts to the mains so it may have more clearance on the under-side to the bottom of the pan. That is possible, but then again was not an issue at 7,000 rpm on the dyno with the 8 qrts in the pan? I guess a good question would be: How much oil remains in the pan ? See thread:

    http://www.performanceboats.com/dyno...s-oil-pan.html

    The negative pressure thing, on would think the same would have happened on the dyno ?

    Dumb question, but how rigid is your pick up mounted? Is there even a remote chance it could be pulled to the bottom of the pan?
    1" OD pipe anchored to the mains it's 1/2" off the pan floor and it's not going anywhere.


    the other pick-up was not as stout and it had even worse psi issues.

    No reason for me not to believe the oil psi readings, but I have given some thought of adding a gauge on the "in" side of the filter adapter: run a line up the side of the head and be able to read it at the top of the engine



    As to the trap doors: they open and swing really easy.

    This oil pump should be moving as much oil as it's going to move at 4,500 I'd think. These type of pumps have some sort of internal by-pass. I'll check with Paul.

    I'll put 7 qrts in the pan first and see what happens then move up to 8. We do know that worked on the dyno.

    BTW, I've received two phone calls on this today... they didn't want to post in the thread.

    S CP
    Last edited by Sleeper CP; 07-23-2012 at 04:03 PM.

    "Dark Sarcasm"
    Going fast is only half the fun ... what you make go
    fast is the other half.
    " A Government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take away everything you have"
    Quick reply to this message Reply  

  12. #10
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    4

    Default

    Sleeper

    On the dyno you had the Kaase dual feed pump with great pressure, is this the pump your using in the boat? A friend has a Charlie's pan and had a similar problem until they modified the pickup.

    Sorry to read about the dive in pressure when you mash the gas
    Quick reply to this message Reply  

  13. #11
    Senior Member GT Jets's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Morgan Hill
    Posts
    2,234

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeper CP View Post

    This oil pump should be moving as much oil as it's going to move at 4,500 I'd think. These type of pumps have some sort of internal by-pass. I'll check with Paul.

    I'll put 7 qrts in the pan first and see what happens then move up to 8. We do know that worked on the dyno.

    BTW, I've received two phone calls on this today... they didn't want to post in the thread.

    S CP
    I would be curious to see the results. If this is the case where it works with less oil then I would say that there is a drafting issue in the area outside the trap. A 3/4" hole in the top of the wall of the trap common to the sump should all but cure it.

    I also have no problems saying stupid chit on an open forum....It helps me remember stupid things...You learn twice as much from a mistake as you do from a success....

    In other words, I have no pride left.
    GT


    Quote Originally Posted by Quickjet View Post
    Put a 300 on the back of it, Flywheel it and a nosecone. $15,000 later you'll have a 65 mph pile of shit......
    Quick reply to this message Reply  

  14. #12
    Senior Member GT Jets's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Morgan Hill
    Posts
    2,234

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeper CP View Post

    The negative pressure thing, on would think the same would have happened on the dyno ?



    S CP
    As for the negative in the pan with 10 quarts, the oil acts like a P-trap dividing the pan into two parts...With the lower oil levels, this division was non existent because the oil level was below the tray...IMHO
    GT


    Quote Originally Posted by Quickjet View Post
    Put a 300 on the back of it, Flywheel it and a nosecone. $15,000 later you'll have a 65 mph pile of shit......
    Quick reply to this message Reply  

  15. #13
    Resident Ford Nut Sleeper CP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Diego County
    Posts
    10,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fomoco1 View Post
    Sleeper

    On the dyno you had the Kaase dual feed pump with great pressure, is this the pump your using in the boat? A friend has a Charlie's pan and had a similar problem until they modified the pickup.

    Sorry to read about the dive in pressure when you mash the gas
    No this is a new set-up from the dyno. In the boat this set-up is 8-10 psi better than the Kaase pump and pick-up from Steph's. At 4,500 it's better than 12 psi better with 220* oil.

    Pump info:
    http://www.performanceboats.com/dyno...-oil-pump.html

    S CP
    Last edited by Sleeper CP; 07-23-2012 at 04:26 PM.

    "Dark Sarcasm"
    Going fast is only half the fun ... what you make go
    fast is the other half.
    " A Government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take away everything you have"
    Quick reply to this message Reply  

  16. #14
    Resident Ford Nut Sleeper CP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Diego County
    Posts
    10,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GT Jets View Post
    In other words, I have no pride left.

    Neither do I. I post this stuff so others might learn something I've already taken the hit, if someone finds them self in the same spot they might know the answer now. The thought did cross my mind about drilling a few holes in the back baffle.

    S CP
    Last edited by Sleeper CP; 07-23-2012 at 04:24 PM.

    "Dark Sarcasm"
    Going fast is only half the fun ... what you make go
    fast is the other half.
    " A Government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take away everything you have"
    Quick reply to this message Reply  

Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 ... LastLast

Quick Reply Quick Reply

Register Now

Please enter the name by which you would like to log-in and be known on this site.

Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Tags for this Thread

Digg This Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
 

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95