Had a couple more questions/ cams/pistons
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Had a couple more questions/ cams/pistons

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    Aquacraft Eddie's Avatar
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    Default Had a couple more questions/ cams/pistons

    Ok my first question is, how are lunati roller cams/lifter? And howard? I have seen good deals on howard cams and lifter kits, they are about $600.00, anybody use lunati or howard roller lifters/ cams? Also do you guys recommend forged pistons in just a family ski boat? Not racing, just ski.,,, and why? My dads 396 came straight out of a car and into the boat, and it lasted for at least 10yrs, it sounded like it had a rod knocking or something so he just parked it, we never took the motor apart so we still dont know what it was. I am still considering my options on the roller cams and just wanted to know opinions on howard and lunati, i know that morels have been recommended but i was looking at all brands except comp., i have seen to many bad threads on here about comp, and as far as forged pistons go just wondering why they are recommended, dont want to start a war on here just wondering thanks guys...

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    Bostick Racing Engines six-oh-nine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    Ok my first question is, how are lunati roller cams/lifter? And howard? I have seen good deals on howard cams and lifter kits, they are about $600.00, anybody use lunati or howard roller lifters/ cams? Also do you guys recommend forged pistons in just a family ski boat? Not racing, just ski.,,, and why? My dads 396 came straight out of a car and into the boat, and it lasted for at least 10yrs, it sounded like it had a rod knocking or something so he just parked it, we never took the motor apart so we still dont know what it was. I am still considering my options on the roller cams and just wanted to know opinions on howard and lunati, i know that morels have been recommended but i was looking at all brands except comp., i have seen to many bad threads on here about comp, and as far as forged pistons go just wondering why they are recommended, dont want to start a war on here just wondering thanks guys...
    Bet that 396 had a flat tappet cam in it... just sayin'

    If you go "budget" on your roller cam and lifter kit... you are going to be just as unhappy with your purchase as if you went "budget" on your flat tappet cam... in fact more so since you paid a whole lot more loot for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by six-oh-nine View Post
    Bet that 396 had a flat tappet cam in it... just sayin'

    If you go "budget" on your roller cam and lifter kit... you are going to be just as unhappy with your purchase as if you went "budget" on your flat tappet cam... in fact more so since you paid a whole lot more loot for it.
    Agreed. The budget friendly Morel is called the Street Series. It is not designed for marine use. No names mentioned but just saw a set of Morel street series pulled out of marine build after failure. The lifter is not designed for that, they are designed for street GM Hot cams and mild hyd roller profiles turning 2200 rpm going down the road.

    You need to run the Morel 4603 and that lifter is around $600 a set.
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    Quote Originally Posted by six-oh-nine View Post
    Bet that 396 had a flat tappet cam in it... just sayin'

    If you go "budget" on your roller cam and lifter kit... you are going to be just as unhappy with your purchase as if you went "budget" on your flat tappet cam... in fact more so since you paid a whole lot more loot for it.
    This is where roller lifters get a lot of their "bad rap"...cheap roller lifters, or rollers used in the wrong app., are far more dangerous than cheap flat tappets. When a roller lifter fails, it can cause a LOT more collateral damage.
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    Aquacraft Eddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by six-oh-nine View Post
    bet that 396 had a flat tappet cam in it... Just sayin'

    if you go "budget" on your roller cam and lifter kit... You are going to be just as unhappy with your purchase as if you went "budget" on your flat tappet cam... In fact more so since you paid a whole lot more loot for it.
    your right ,, the 396 came right out of a chevelle that my dad found in a chunk yard in the 60's, he put it in the boat and it ran for years until it started making a knock sound, not sure why. The motor was a stock 396, no forged pistons, no roller, completley stock. I was not planning on going "cheap" on the parts, either roller cam or flat tappet, just wondering if anybody has used howard or lunati? Lunati and morel are the same company? Or not? Im not sure,, but thanks for the replys. And thanks for the morel lifter numbers !!

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    Bostick Racing Engines six-oh-nine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    your right ,, the 396 came right out of a chevelle that my dad found in a chunk yard in the 60's, he put it in the boat and it ran for years until it started making a knock sound, not sure why. The motor was a stock 396, no forged pistons, no roller, completley stock. I was not planning on going "cheap" on the parts, either roller cam or flat tappet, just wondering if anybody has used howard or lunati? Lunati and morel are the same company? Or not? Im not sure,, but thanks for the replys. And thanks for the morel lifter numbers !!
    From what I have been told, since I do not use either Lunati or Howards, is that Howards "High End" lifters are Morel... the endurance marine lifters are made by a fella that made lifters at Crane (name escapes me rigth now)... and the "low end" are whomever... basically much like a bunch of the folks out there... they just rebox and resell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcomp View Post
    This is where roller lifters get a lot of their "bad rap"...cheap roller lifters, or rollers used in the wrong app., are far more dangerous than cheap flat tappets. When a roller lifter fails, it can cause a LOT more collateral damage.
    Yep. NO SUCH THING AS A "BUDGET" MARINE ROLLER. Personally, I don't even like the sound of "budget roller", but certainly not a marine one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    your right ,, the 396 came right out of a chevelle that my dad found in a chunk yard in the 60's, he put it in the boat and it ran for years until it started making a knock sound, not sure why. The motor was a stock 396, no forged pistons, no roller, completley stock. I was not planning on going "cheap" on the parts, either roller cam or flat tappet, just wondering if anybody has used howard or lunati? Lunati and morel are the same company? Or not? Im not sure,, but thanks for the replys. And thanks for the morel lifter numbers !!
    I haven't seen this 396, but I would not bet more than $1.00 that it had cast pistons. Also, try not to forget that the OEM cams and tappets were quality pieces. Almost all flat tappet lifters and cams back then were OEM quality or better, and OEM cams ran pretty weak valve springs on them. Today you MUST be more certain of the quality of the parts. Specially the lifters. There is some junk out there. Flat tappets still work. Its just not a pick it, and install it deal anymore. The spring pressures are higher and the grind is more agreesive than an OEM cam. You need good parts, and run the right oil. Not what ever is on sale that week.

    There no reason for running a cast piston in a boat. NONE. There are choses out there that are more than reasonable for a forged piston. There are Auto-Tec and Icon. Personally, I perfer the Icon, but both are vastly better than running ANY cast piston and the price is not so high that it should have you even remotely considering a cast piston.

    Quote Originally Posted by six-oh-nine View Post
    the endurance marine lifters are made by a fella that made lifters at Crane (name escapes me rigth now)... and the "low end" are whomever... basically much like a bunch of the folks out there... they just rebox and resell.

    Not going to mention any names, but the initials are GS. I have seen both Howards and Herberts top lifter, and from what I can tell, its the same lifter as Crane's Pro



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    Last edited by gn7; 09-14-2012 at 04:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by six-oh-nine View Post
    From what I have been told, since I do not use either Lunati or Howards, is that Howards "High End" lifters are Morel... the endurance marine lifters are made by a fella that made lifters at Crane (name escapes me rigth now)... and the "low end" are whomever... basically much like a bunch of the folks out there... they just rebox and resell.
    Howard's "good" lifters are Morel. Howard's "cheap" lifters are...cheap, and I'm being polite.
    GS lifters are another high quality choice when it comes to solid rollers. I have a customer with a set in a 1000+hp blown marine 540 and so far so good.

    Don;t know about Lunati...could be they're Morel also.

    One other thing to note is that Morel has two style solid lifters; their Pro series and their Ultra Pro. The Pro series is the same tool steel body, the same pressure fed axles and rollers and also rebuildable. There's just more machining on the Pro series where they have an oil band around the center and they aren't micro polished...the Ultra Pro series has a full body for more surface area and higher rpm stability, and are micro polished. Both have the same precision machining and hold the same tolerances which to me, is huge with lifters when you're trying to hold proper lifter to bore clearances.
    Last edited by scott foxwell; 09-14-2012 at 06:20 PM.
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    Default Lifter info!!!!

    I usually keep pretty quiet on here but on this particular subject regarding roller lifters I'll share my own experience. I have a real nice 351 windsor in my prostreet mustang. I originally ran comp cams solid roller lifters in it when I built it. I lost a wheel on one of the lifters at approx 1000 miles and it cost me around 2k to fix all the damage caused from the debris (bearings, rings, machine work, cam, lifters, oil pump, gaskets, etc...). I replaced the old lifters with the same brand and model. Needless to say......not even close to 1000 miles later the same exact thing happen again! This time the cost to put the motor back together was even higher because the debris from the lifter wheel disintegrating tore up the rod journals on my crank as well as the parts previously mentioned that I had just replaced. So after going through this twice I broke down and bought a set of Crower lifters which where twice as much as the comp cams lifters. The motor is still running today and there have been no more issues with it! I CAN NOT emphasize enough how important PROPER and QUALITY valvetrain selection is!!!!

    Over the winter I built a blown 502 for my boat and had a hyd. roller ground for it by a guy named Bob Madara. He owns a company called Marine Kinetics (585-654-8583) and IMO is about the best there is in the marine industry when it comes to valvetrain and what works! He's a great guy, VERY knowledgeable and is always willing to help out a fellow boater. He takes the time to talk with you and makes sure he knows what it is you are trying to achieve. He is not one of those guys that just rushes you through a conversation, takes your money then tries to get you off the phone as quickly as possible! BTW, I run the "higher end" morel lifters in this new combo I just built and Bob sold the set to me for $525.00 which was the cheapest price I found! (Also, I thought this was really cool....When I was getting ready to measure for pushrod length I called Bob to ask him which kit I should buy and he said "don't worry, I have a few kits that bounce around from customer to customer....I'll email one of the guys that has one and have him send it to you. When your done with it just hold on to it till I email you an address to send it to next").

    Hope this info helps you out and good luck! Mark

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    When the 396 was built,Chevy then used, forged pistons, and were built with fitted pistons. I ran one and captured the Eastern divisonal SS with one

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    on Crower. I ran a set for 10 years in my jet boat with no issues. Still got them. When I built my race motor in '03 I put in new Crowers just because it was a new built and was going to be beat on. 250# seat pressure and 7500 RPM. No issues with these. I also use Crower rockers.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mustangmark View Post
    I usually keep pretty quiet on here but on this particular subject regarding roller lifters I'll share my own experience. I have a real nice 351 windsor in my prostreet mustang. I originally ran comp cams solid roller lifters in it when I built it. I lost a wheel on one of the lifters at approx 1000 miles and it cost me around 2k to fix all the damage caused from the debris (bearings, rings, machine work, cam, lifters, oil pump, gaskets, etc...). I replaced the old lifters with the same brand and model. Needless to say......not even close to 1000 miles later the same exact thing happen again! This time the cost to put the motor back together was even higher because the debris from the lifter wheel disintegrating tore up the rod journals on my crank as well as the parts previously mentioned that I had just replaced. So after going through this twice I broke down and bought a set of Crower lifters which where twice as much as the comp cams lifters. The motor is still running today and there have been no more issues with it! I CAN NOT emphasize enough how important PROPER and QUALITY valvetrain selection is!!!!

    Over the winter I built a blown 502 for my boat and had a hyd. roller ground for it by a guy named Bob Madara. He owns a company called Marine Kinetics (585-654-8583) and IMO is about the best there is in the marine industry when it comes to valvetrain and what works! He's a great guy, VERY knowledgeable and is always willing to help out a fellow boater. He takes the time to talk with you and makes sure he knows what it is you are trying to achieve. He is not one of those guys that just rushes you through a conversation, takes your money then tries to get you off the phone as quickly as possible! BTW, I run the "higher end" morel lifters in this new combo I just built and Bob sold the set to me for $525.00 which was the cheapest price I found! (Also, I thought this was really cool....When I was getting ready to measure for pushrod length I called Bob to ask him which kit I should buy and he said "don't worry, I have a few kits that bounce around from customer to customer....I'll email one of the guys that has one and have him send it to you. When your done with it just hold on to it till I email you an address to send it to next").

    Hope this info helps you out and good luck! Mark
    THANKS ALOT FOR THE INFO AND PHONE NUMBER! I WILL GIVE HIM A CALL AS SOON AS I CAN, I WISH I WOULD HAVE PUT ROLLERS IN MY CLEVELAND BUT AT THE TIME THERE WASNT ALOT OF PEOPLE DOING IT, AND THEY COST WAY MORE BACK THEN THAN NOW. I REALLY APPRECIATE ALL THE INFO EVERYBODY HAS GIVEN ME! IF I DO DECIDE TO GO WITH A ROLLER SET UP I MAY SALE MY GT750 BUT NOT SURE YET, STILL THINKING ABOUT IT, IF I DONT SALE THE BIKE I GUESS ONE MORE THING ON THE CREDIT CARD WONT HURT TO BAD

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    Eddie, you still seem to be under the impression that the Cleveland is hard on it valvetrain, specifically lifters and that flat tappets require some voodoo oil to live. Both are total non sense. Yes you do have to think about the oil oil you use. The days of buying what ever is on sale that week are over. But there are oils readily available that are more than up to the job.
    As for the Clevelands being hard on lifters, thats just total bullshit.

    Like six=oh-nine posted. Flat tappets are still the largest selling segment of cams sold every day. If they all failed, the would be forced to stop selling them. Its just a matter of the right parts from the right supplier and the right oil. You can no longer just grab any POS cam and lifter kit from Summit with offshore lifters and dump your favorite Castrol, Havoline, Valvoline, or virtually and other 10/30 in there and expect it to live. It won't.



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    Last edited by gn7; 09-16-2012 at 06:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    eddie, you still seem to be under the impression that the cleveland is hard on it valvetrain, specifically lifters and that flat tappets require some voodoo oil to live. Both are total non sense. Yes you do have to think about the oil oil you use. The days of buying what ever is on sale that week are over. But there are oils readily available that are more than up to the job.
    As for the clevelands being hard on lifters, thats just total bullshit.

    Like six=oh-nine posted. Flat tappets are still the largest selling segment of cams sold every day. If they all failed, the would be forced to stop selling them. Its just a matter of the right parts from the right supplier and the right oil. You can no longer just grab any pos cam and lifter kit from summit with offshore lifters and dump your favorite castrol, havoline, valvoline, or virtually and other 10/30 in there and expect it to live. It won't.
    i was just saying that clevelands were known for rounding cam lobes, this was one of the problems they had from the start, i didnt know this back then , but now i do and i wished i would have put a roller in it to hopefully get more miles out of it before it rounds the cam it has now. They would round flat tappet cams back then before they even took the zinc and whatever else out of the oil. The cam in the cleveland was one of the first things to go in a stock motor. The mach1 that i have had rounded the lobes at about 65,000 to 70,000 miles and it was actually still running pretty good!, just kept getting a backfire once in a while and i finally pulled the valve cover, the old man turned the motor over and there was a couple of rockers not moving all the way up and down, i rebuilt the motor, i wish i took a picture of the cam, i couldnt believe that it didnt run worse! There were a few lobes that were almost completely round! Then years after i rebuilt the motor i came across a article on how to keep your cleveland cam alive, or something like that, it discussed the issue with the clevelands rounding cams, and the best way to keep this from happening was to put a roller cam in it! But i came across this years later just wished i would have known that back then. I know that a flat tappet is fine if you buy the right oil or additive no arguement with that, all my vehicles have flat tappets right now, if i build the 454 with a roller it will be my 1st..

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