Stack Injection converted to EFI ?
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Stack Injection converted to EFI ?

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    Default Stack Injection converted to EFI ?

    I have a Kinsler Stack Manifold with 2.9" throttle bores. I would like do a EFI conversion to it. but I am concerned about the throttle bore size. It will be going on a pump gas 496 ci for my daycruiser. I want this engine to have some low end in it. We have been talking about bushing the throttle bores down to around 2" to get the air moving at lower rpms. and making a better signal for the map.
    Anybody out there done this? are we over thinking this?
    Thanks

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    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by boatguy222 View Post
    I have a Kinsler Stack Manifold with 2.9" throttle bores. I would like do a EFI conversion to it. but I am concerned about the throttle bore size. It will be going on a pump gas 496 ci for my daycruiser. I want this engine to have some low end in it. We have been talking about bushing the throttle bores down to around 2" to get the air moving at lower rpms. and making a better signal for the map.
    Anybody out there done this? are we over thinking this?
    Thanks
    The throttle bore has very little to do with low end torque with EFI. It more of a throttle control issue than anything. When the bores get too big it makes it more difficult to control the sir thru them with your foot. A little throttle with 8 bores near 3" each doesn't take alot of movement to move a lot of air. The lack of a plenum and the short runner length play a bigger part of the lower RPM torque and response than the bore size.

    The two biggest issues in the conversion is the accuracy of the bores verses the throttle blades. MFIs are real picky about how accurately the blade/bore interface is, and tend to be a little sloppy, making it hard to get a good clean idle with EFI.
    The other is a accurate MAP reading. It requires that all 8 bores are tied together to create a true signal. Many times this is done with a manifold header under the manifold in the lifter valley and tied into all the ports.

    Have you contacted Kinsler to see if they offer the conversion. Or Hilborn?



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    We realize that a 8 into 1 Manifold will be required for the for the map. I just don't if we will gwt much of a signal with the big bores. Hilborn make their EFI conversion with the 3" bore unit, but I am thinking it is for bigger CI than I have. I will give Kinsler a call.

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    I would never recommend running speed density on a ITB/stack injection. You need to run an EFI setup that allows alpha N tuning.

    If you trash the throttle arm linkage and set up a quality eccentric with a throttle cable, it will act just like a progressive linkage. It's very important that the eccentric is designed properly, many stock setups have good ones. This will give much nicer part throttle control. If you do both of these things I guarantee your efi setup will run better in every way compared to what an mfi could ever hope to do.


    Andrew

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    Quote Originally Posted by boatguy222 View Post
    We realize that a 8 into 1 Manifold will be required for the for the map. I just don't if we will gwt much of a signal with the big bores. Hilborn make their EFI conversion with the 3" bore unit, but I am thinking it is for bigger CI than I have. I will give Kinsler a call.
    The vac/map is not a product of the throttle bore size, it is a product of the cam and engine size.

    The manifold vac/map at any given throttle angle, regardless of the bore size, equates to a RPM of the engine. the more air, the faster the engine will run. It makes no difference if the air comes from 8 small bores, 8 large bores, or one huge bore.
    vacuum like is some what like the reverse of boost. Its not the size of the bores controlling the leak, simply the amount of the leak. 8 large bores cracked X amount, or 8 smaller bores cracked XX amount, or one huge bore cracked 1/2X. The air allowed in, determines the speed of the engine. Engine size and cam and RPM verses the restriction to flow, or the size of the leak.

    I will say that the larger the common vac plenum tied to the port runners the more accurate the map reading, to a point. But it can easily be too small for an accurate measurement.

    There is also "alpha N" ECUs that don't need a map sensor. They use strictly RPM and throttle position to determine the fuel needs. But they are only slightly better at controlling fuel flow than a MFI.



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    Last edited by gn7; 10-14-2012 at 07:29 PM.

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    Also, idle quality is a non issue with a good system that is correctly set up.


    Andrew

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    alpha N is a million times better than mfi! It also makes a huge difference whether 1 throttle bore controls an air leak or 8 throttle bores do!

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    If all 8 bores are all tied to a large enough plenum chamber for a accurate map reading, the system has no way of knowing how the air is being fed to the engine, and how many bores are feeding it.
    The lack of a in the air steam plenum, the port length and size have MUCH bigger impact than the blade size when there is no common plenum in the air stream itself. (not to be confused with the below blade plenum for the map.



    Alpha N is marginally better than a well set up MFI. It uses EXACTLY the same 2 criteria, one mechanical, one elctronic sensors to relay the info. But only marginally better at determineing the required flow.
    Only a person that has ZERO experience with MFI would put it that much lower than a stone age Alpha N system.



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    Last edited by gn7; 10-14-2012 at 07:43 PM.

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    Hahahaha!!! Here comes the gn7 that know everything about everything! You'll say anything to cover yourself when called out on info you found from a google search.

    You have no idea what you are talking about, so stop talking! Marginally better! Hahaha....please.....

    I think I'll just say this, since I already know where this is headed. To the OP, do a little more research! Many people are running ITB/stack efi with amazing success....the majority are running alpha N/ITB (both are very similar)

    Gn7 advice isn't exactly what I'd be relying on, considering he's never tuned an efi setup, and is planning to rock the world with a turbo MFI that to this day still has never been done with any real success....I wonder why???

    Andrew

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    Quote Originally Posted by ap67et10 View Post
    Hahahaha!!! Here comes the gn7 that know everything about everything! You'll say anything to cover yourself when called out on info you found from a google search.

    You have no idea what you are talking about, so stop talking! Marginally better! Hahaha....please.....

    I think I'll just say this, since I already know where this is headed. To the OP, do a little more research! Many people are running ITB/stack efi with amazing success....the majority are running alpha N/ITB (both are very similar)

    Gn7 advice isn't exactly what I'd be relying on, considering he's never tuned an efi setup, and is planning to rock the world with a turbo MFI that to this day still has never been done with any real success....I wonder why???

    Andrew
    I have done a Alpha N conversion of a Hilborn stack. It was a total waste of my time and money. All the same issues the MFI had and not that much better in over all fuel control.
    I ASSUME your belief in the Alpha N is yor total lack of abilityb to set up a MFI decently.

    I NEVER said people weren't running ITB EFI systems that function perfectly. Never even came close to saying it. I was doing street rods before I started screwing with these POS boats and ITB systems are COMMON place on street rods and they work FINE. Not too many bothering with a lame ass Alpha N system though. Can't say I would recommend anybody convert a stack deal to a Alpha N EVER!

    I guess if you have one of those magical O2 meters with a read out that TELL YOU to change, then you can get a Alpha N system to work great. But to my knowledge YOU are the only person I know that has a O2 meter that tells you EXACTLY what needs teeking, like how to get a carb to keep from bogging by .....??????what ever yours tells you.
    BTW, when you meter tells you it needs a larger pump nozzle, does it say what size nozzle, or does it just flash "larger pump nozzle", and hasd it ever been wriong, and it really need a different pump cam? Will it tell you if the camshaft in the engine is too big? Does that O2 data recorder make cam suggestions?

    Like I said, if I had YOUR O2 datalogger, I be almost as smart as you are, but YOU seem to have the only logger with those capabilities.

    As for the "stop talking part of your post.
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    I, and I alone will decide when I stop talking. Never told you that. Who the FUCK do you think you are to tell me to stop talking?



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    Last edited by gn7; 10-14-2012 at 08:15 PM.

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    Hahaha! You are funny tonight! Classic Gn7 "I don't know what I'm taking about" post! Well done.

    So you couldn't get Alpha N to run very good huh?? Why am I not surprised??

    Andrew

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    Quote Originally Posted by ap67et10 View Post
    Hahahaha!!! Here comes the gn7 that know everything about everything! You'll say anything to cover yourself when called out on info you found from a google search.

    You have no idea what you are talking about, so stop talking! Marginally better! Hahaha....please.....

    I think I'll just say this, since I already know where this is headed. To the OP, do a little more research! Many people are running ITB/stack efi with amazing success....the majority are running alpha N/ITB (both are very similar)

    Gn7 advice isn't exactly what I'd be relying on, considering he's never tuned an efi setup, and is planning to rock the world with a turbo MFI that to this day still has never been done with any real success....I wonder why???

    Andrew
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    EFI is the wave of the future. There can be no denying it. Electronics have been on the leading edge of our entire lives. Not only os the magneto dead, but the standard issue CDI is wavering. Its all about total fuel, air AND spark control. Anybody that thinks its not has their head up their ass.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ap67et10 View Post
    Hahaha! You are funny tonight! Classic Gn7 "I don't know what I'm taking about" post! Well done.

    So you couldn't get Alpha N to run very good huh?? Why am I not surprised??

    Andrew
    Or Andrew, is it that you totally lost geting a stack MFI to fucntion decently? Why should I be surprised.



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    You shouldn't be surprise! I would never run an MFI setup....EVER! If you gave me one I'd convert it AND run Alpha N/ITB mode in the PCM, but them again I have quite a lot of experience tuning them...all with much success. Oh, and that O2 that tells me EXACTLY what changes to make...I know you're jealous!


    Andrew

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