Dry sump or Vacuum pump???
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Dry sump or Vacuum pump???

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    Senior Member Need4Speed77's Avatar
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    Default Dry sump or Vacuum pump???

    So here is the question. If you were to make an upgrade which would you do and why? Upgrade to a vacuum pump or a dry sump? Which will yield the most bang for the buck hp increase? What is the average cost for each upgrade roughly?

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    Senior Member wagspe208's Avatar
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    Both will make a few hundred extra hp. No problem.
    If one is asking a question like this (no disrespect at all) means you are not maxed out on performance. I'd spend 500 to 1k on dyno time and max what you have now.
    No offense.
    I would!
    Oh, even if I was me for a lake/ river boat.
    Wags

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    Senior Member Need4Speed77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wagspe208 View Post
    Both will make a few hundred extra hp. No problem.
    If one is asking a question like this (no disrespect at all) means you are not maxed out on performance. I'd spend 500 to 1k on dyno time and max what you have now.
    No offense.
    I would!
    Oh, even if I was me for a lake/ river boat.
    Wags
    I have dyno'd the motor and have maxed out what is available with the current setup. I had the motor on the dyno for 5 hours. I cannot afford both upgrades so I am looking for opinions as to which upgrade will be the best bang for the buck horsepower.

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    Senior Member wagspe208's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Need4Speed77 View Post
    I have dyno'd the motor and have maxed out what is available with the current setup. I had the motor on the dyno for 5 hours. I cannot afford both upgrades so I am looking for opinions as to which upgrade will be the best bang for the buck horsepower.
    Gotcha. Good info in 5 hours.
    Wags

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    Senior Member Need4Speed77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wagspe208 View Post
    Gotcha. Good info in 5 hours.
    Wags
    Are you being facetious? Or do you think 5 hours is enough time to get a motor tuned in for max output? It's just a single carb N/A deal with a decent cam.
    Last edited by Need4Speed77; 11-13-2012 at 07:06 PM.

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    Senior Member jimclauss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Need4Speed77 View Post
    Are you being facetious? Or do you think 5 hours is enough time to get a motor tuned in for max output? It's just a single carb N/A deal with a decent cam.
    5 hrs is plenty of time , but I can't buy that real big hp gain( few hundred extra Hp ) with a dry sump or vacuum sump?? On a single carb, NA. Dry sump makes them live alot longer.
    Last edited by jimclauss; 11-13-2012 at 08:03 PM.

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    gn7
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    The vac pump is much cheaper than a dry sump, and will gain the most bang for the buck. The dry sump is more expensive but there are other benefits to it besides just HP.
    By the time you by the pump, tank, pan, drive pulleys and mandrels, the lines and filters, plus built the mounts for all of it, it gets real spendy real fast.
    The cost difference between a bargin basement vacuum pump and a top tier unit is hundreds. Between a so so dry sump system and a top tier unit is thousands. Bang for the buck, dry sump are pitifully bad compared to a vac pump. If ALL your looking for is HP per dollar, the dry sump is a loser. Dry sumps claim to fame is not just HP.



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    Last edited by gn7; 11-13-2012 at 08:17 PM.

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    Or Seth, either one Budweiser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Need4Speed77 View Post
    So here is the question. If you were to make an upgrade which would you do and why? Upgrade to a vacuum pump or a dry sump? Which will yield the most bang for the buck hp increase? What is the average cost for each upgrade roughly?
    Do you have low tension rings?

    Quote Originally Posted by wagspe208 View Post
    Both will make a few hundred extra hp. No problem.
    If one is asking a question like this (no disrespect at all) means you are not maxed out on performance. I'd spend 500 to 1k on dyno time and max what you have now.
    No offense.
    I would!
    Oh, even if I was me for a lake/ river boat.
    Wags
    Didn't you buy a dynamometer not too long ago? When it come to practicing what you preach... you're the Pope

    Damn I'm chatty today.
    Last edited by Budweiser; 11-13-2012 at 08:24 PM.

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    Senior Member TNYoungblood's Avatar
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    I think Cyclone posted 1 time he picked up 40 HP on the dyno with the vac pump
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    Senior Member Need4Speed77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    The vac pump is much cheaper than a dry sump, and will gain the most bang for the buck. The dry sump is more expensive but there are other benefits to it besides just HP.
    By the time you by the pump, tank, pan, drive pulleys and mandrels, the lines and filters, plus built the mounts for all of it, it gets real spendy real fast.
    The cost difference between a bargin basement vacuum pump and a top tier unit is hundreds. Between a so so dry sump system and a top tier unit is thousands. Bang for the buck, dry sump are pitifully bad compared to a vac pump. If ALL your looking for is HP per dollar, the dry sump is a loser. Dry sumps claim to fame is not just HP.
    Thats pretty much what I thought but for the cost of the dry sump there are many other benefits. I really dont want to add all the weight for the whole dry sump setup. Just tossing around which way to go since I am making changes this winter. The vacuum pump is the direction I was leaning. Thanks for the info. Thats what I was looking for.

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    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimclauss View Post
    5 hrs is plenty of time , but I can't buy that real big hp gain( few hundred extra Hp ) with a dry sump or vacuum sump?? On a single carb, NA. Dry sump makes them live alot longer.
    Quote Originally Posted by TNYoungblood View Post
    I think Cyclone posted 1 time he picked up 40 HP on the dyno with the vac pump
    When Grumpy Jenkins built his SBC Vega, he wasn't all that sold that a dry sump could make any real HP over his best pan. As he tried to get the engine lower and lower in the car, and the wet sump pan started getting shallower and shallower, he tested a dry sump. The difference was 70HP over his best pan, AT THAT INSTALLED ENGINE LOCATION! But, and this is a huge BUT, he found as much as 40HP in just the dry sumps pan design. Its not atuomatic that a dry sump will make power. The pan design and the pump sizing is a big part of the deal.
    Remember, this was in a 9500-10,000 RPM SBC with a tight ass crankcase. The power gain on a BBF with a 3.85 stroke turning 6500, and a really good wet sump pan would be considerably less.
    But he could almost match the power with a wet sump, if he built the pan deep enough, and used a pan evac system.

    The dry sumps claim to fame is more than just HP. Like jimclauss posted, it can be the difference between living and dying for some engines, as well as the ability to mount the engine lower in the boat or car. Which can be more benficial than HP.

    Dry sumps are expensive, heavy, and complicated messes, and installed incorrectly, can blow up an engine every bit as fast as a bad wet sump. But if you have the coinage, they will make power and they will make the engine live.



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    Last edited by gn7; 11-13-2012 at 08:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Budweiser View Post
    Do you have low tension rings?

    No I dont have low tension rings but the rings I have will be fine with a vacuum pump. If i decide to tear down the short block I will go to low tension then.

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    Or Seth, either one Budweiser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Need4Speed77 View Post
    No I dont have low tension rings but the rings I have will be fine with a vacuum pump. If i decide to tear down the short block I will go to low tension then.
    It's my understanding (and I could be wrong) that a good portion of the power gained by running a vacuum pump set up is a result of reduced friction of low tension rings. I'm sure GN7 or one of the other guys will clear it up, but something along the lines of the pump working in conjunction with low tension ring... reducing ring flutter... something along those lines. I'm curious what gain may be had with and without low tension rings.

    How far off am I?

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    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Budweiser View Post
    It's my understanding (and I could be wrong) that a good portion of the power gained by running a vacuum pump set up is a result of reduced friction of low tension rings. I'm sure GN7 or one of the other guys will clear it up, but something along the lines of the pump working in conjunction with low tension ring... reducing ring flutter... something along those lines. I'm curious what gain may be had with and without low tension rings.

    How far off am I?
    It can be part of the gain. Its one of the things that the vac allows you to do. But there is still a gain from the vac pump without them, just from the reduced windage.
    Yes, vac pumps do help the rings seal better and allow the use of low tension rings. But then, so do blowers and turbos.



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