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SE motor

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    Senior Member EVILFORCE's Avatar
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    Default SE motor

    OK SBC Studs. Thinking of doing that SE thang. Need to build a 350. The rules are pretty well layed out. Basically a stock head and no mods. 194 intake and a 160 exhaust I believe. I guess you can back cut the valves and thats about it. A fine fellow hear suggested the 331 or the 441 head as one of the better ones. I have built a chit load of 350's but never was looking for the best head. Always modded them anyway. What do you Gurus think about it? Thanks for your time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EVILFORCE View Post
    OK SBC Studs. Thinking of doing that SE thang. Need to build a 350. The rules are pretty well layed out. Basically a stock head and no mods. 194 intake and a 160 exhaust I believe. I guess you can back cut the valves and thats about it. A fine fellow hear suggested the 331 or the 441 head as one of the better ones. I have built a chit load of 350's but never was looking for the best head. Always modded them anyway. What do you Gurus think about it? Thanks for your time.
    Not familar with the 331 head. As for the 441 head,

    Vortec head, PERIOD!!!

    Evil, Paul Grichar screwed the lid down so tight on those rules it stunned even me, and I helped with some of it. When he got done with what Paul Miller, I and others had contributed to the rules, we all KNEW we were dealing with a dictator. He is the OBAMA of flat bottom racing. Lots of "advisers" but he and he alone is 100% responable for the rules in the end.

    IF, and thats a huge IF, you had a boat that said "God bless you" when you sneeze, then, and only then, would chasing "hidden HP" be worth it. And there is HP hidden all over the engine under those rules.

    But don't overthing the heads. Your never going to get the flow out of a set of "older" chevy heads with that valve size that the Vortec head can produce.
    Yes, the valve job, the WHOLE valve job is critical on those heads to maximize the flow under those rules. Cam selection is the single most critical piece of the whole ball of wax.



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    Senior Member EVILFORCE's Avatar
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    I hoped you would pop in here. How do I pick a cam if I dont know what the heads are doing? So the Vortec are legal. Any particular number?
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    Distinguished Member David 519's Avatar
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    Dr. Evil... if you're totally sold on SE, like GN said, the motor's pretty much built for you by the rules. That said, if you already have a bunch of big block stuff and your boat is already set up for a BB, consider running one of the GPS classes. Only motor limitations then become no blower, no nitro and then hull safety stuff.
    I thought long and hard about SE before we took the direction we did. I do think the SE class will catch on, but around here it doesn't seem to have yet. A SE boat is specific to only that class (I guess you could enter a gps class with an SE boat but would be at a big disadvantage). We took the approach to have something that's legal in SS, PS or a GPS class just to have a class to race with. Good luck which ever way you go and keep us posted on progress....
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    ....... David 519 is 100% correct........

    Quote Originally Posted by fuelinmyveins82 View Post
    .....I think people forget that racing is supposed to fun. Losing shouldn't be discouraging it should motivate you work on your pile to make it faster.....

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    Senior Member EVILFORCE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David 519 View Post
    Dr. Evil... if you're totally sold on SE, like GN said, the motor's pretty much built for you by the rules. That said, if you already have a bunch of big block stuff and your boat is already set up for a BB, consider running one of the GPS classes. Only motor limitations then become no blower, no nitro and then hull safety stuff.
    I thought long and hard about SE before we took the direction we did. I do think the SE class will catch on, but around here it doesn't seem to have yet. A SE boat is specific to only that class (I guess you could enter a gps class with an SE boat but would be at a big disadvantage). We took the approach to have something that's legal in SS, PS or a GPS class just to have a class to race with. Good luck which ever way you go and keep us posted on progress....
    So what you are say David is race with you. Would you be alright for a old guy to spank you?


    Ya. I was kind of thinking that. I have had many PM's about the Grinch guy that runs it. I think I might have a problem with him. In the rules it says old boats that have run E-Class can be grandfathered in. I put pics up of a E-Boat just like mine racing. His thinking is it might make water rough from what I was told. And he is very bad about changing the rules for one person if there stuff works to good. Like if you go faster then the others he will make you run a restrictor plate. Which is total BULL SHIT for a stock motor class.
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    Village Idiot fc-Pilot's Avatar
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    Beautifully placed in Bob's post is the key to the SE deal. The hull and hull setup are the two MAJOR factors to having a winning boat instead of a race boat. There are lots of little gems hiding in the corners of the engine rules to make power, but if the boat is not on top of its game then having a big block won't matter. My point it this, the class is designed as an "Entry" class. Because of that the restrictor plate idea makes some sense. If you enjoy racing at the proposed speed range then you can have a long and happy existence within the class. If you feel that it is not your cup of tea (which is understandable) the GPS class is a fantastic option in my opinion. If I were in your shoes I would look at what I wanted for a long term racing plan and head toward the finish line without taking too many detours.

    As far as engine stuff goes, I believe the Vortec heads are the best option that is available. I would also spend a few extra bucks on a custom cam to try and make a few extra ponies. That and a good scoop, carb and intake package would be high on the performance side. For the most part the rest would be focused on longevity. A good bottom end and oiling system will be a big key to a long and health life for an SE boat. And last but not least, I would spend some time tuning it. Both the boat and engine together will need to be dialed in. One issue I have seen is that pump gas does not color the plugs like race fuel does so you have to carefully set it up instead of making big changes.

    I would love to have built an SE engine to put in someones boat to help jump start the class down here, but unfortunately I don't even have the funds to do that. Who knows, I may sell a few "not as vital" organs and do it anyway. LOL

    Paul

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    Senior Member EVILFORCE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc-Pilot View Post
    Beautifully placed in Bob's post is the key to the SE deal. The hull and hull setup are the two MAJOR factors to having a winning boat instead of a race boat. There are lots of little gems hiding in the corners of the engine rules to make power, but if the boat is not on top of its game then having a big block won't matter. My point it this, the class is designed as an "Entry" class. Because of that the restrictor plate idea makes some sense. If you enjoy racing at the proposed speed range then you can have a long and happy existence within the class. If you feel that it is not your cup of tea (which is understandable) the GPS class is a fantastic option in my opinion. If I were in your shoes I would look at what I wanted for a long term racing plan and head toward the finish line without taking too many detours.

    As far as engine stuff goes, I believe the Vortec heads are the best option that is available. I would also spend a few extra bucks on a custom cam to try and make a few extra ponies. That and a good scoop, carb and intake package would be high on the performance side. For the most part the rest would be focused on longevity. A good bottom end and oiling system will be a big key to a long and health life for an SE boat. And last but not least, I would spend some time tuning it. Both the boat and engine together will need to be dialed in. One issue I have seen is that pump gas does not color the plugs like race fuel does so you have to carefully set it up instead of making big changes.

    I would love to have built an SE engine to put in someones boat to help jump start the class down here, but unfortunately I don't even have the funds to do that. Who knows, I may sell a few "not as vital" organs and do it anyway. LOL

    Paul
    Hi Paul You would not happen to have a SBC sitting around looking for a hull do you?

    P.S. It is my understand the way Grinch works the restrictor plate thing is taht if lets say I have a better boat and have a better motor even though it is a legal motor he can shut only me down with the plate. AND i WOULD HAVE APROBLEM WITH THAT.
    Last edited by EVILFORCE; 11-28-2012 at 01:08 PM.
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    Distinguished Member David 519's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EVILFORCE View Post
    ...... Would you be alright for a old guy to spank you? ......
    What is it with you old guys wanting to spank younger, attractive males such as myself.... makes me kinda uncomfortable. I think you've been hanging around QJ to much

    Quote Originally Posted by EVILFORCE View Post
    ....Ya. I was kind of thinking that. I have had many PM's about the Grinch guy that runs it. I think I might have a problem with him. In the rules it says old boats that have run E-Class can be grandfathered in. I put pics up of a E-Boat just like mine racing. His thinking is it might make water rough from what I was told. And he is very bad about changing the rules for one person if there stuff works to good. Like if you go faster then the others he will make you run a restrictor plate. Which is total BULL SHIT for a stock motor class.
    I don't know Grich beyond reputation but I know they have very strict ideas on the class. A "class" boat with a speed limit kinda defeats the purpose to me. From my narrow and uninformed perspective, circle boats are gonna take a hit when the capsule rule takes effect and I think the GPS classes are gonna take over much like brackets have taken over drag boats when the capsule rule hit them. Having a boat that fits as many classes as possible should increase one's options for racing. Seems to me the WPS deal looks like the best deal going for open boats and where I think I'm headed. Of course I may be to much of a drag racer to learn to turn corners and the whole point moot for me..... Time will tell. Good luck which ever way you go
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    ....... David 519 is 100% correct........

    Quote Originally Posted by fuelinmyveins82 View Post
    .....I think people forget that racing is supposed to fun. Losing shouldn't be discouraging it should motivate you work on your pile to make it faster.....

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    Distinguished Member David 519's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc-Pilot View Post
    Beautifully placed in Bob's post is the key to the SE deal. The hull and hull setup are the two MAJOR factors to having a winning boat instead of a race boat. There are lots of little gems hiding in the corners of the engine rules to make power, but if the boat is not on top of its game then having a big block won't matter. My point it this, the class is designed as an "Entry" class. Because of that the restrictor plate idea makes some sense. If you enjoy racing at the proposed speed range then you can have a long and happy existence within the class. If you feel that it is not your cup of tea (which is understandable) the GPS class is a fantastic option in my opinion. If I were in your shoes I would look at what I wanted for a long term racing plan and head toward the finish line without taking too many detours.

    As far as engine stuff goes, I believe the Vortec heads are the best option that is available. I would also spend a few extra bucks on a custom cam to try and make a few extra ponies. That and a good scoop, carb and intake package would be high on the performance side. For the most part the rest would be focused on longevity. A good bottom end and oiling system will be a big key to a long and health life for an SE boat. And last but not least, I would spend some time tuning it. Both the boat and engine together will need to be dialed in. One issue I have seen is that pump gas does not color the plugs like race fuel does so you have to carefully set it up instead of making big changes.

    I would love to have built an SE engine to put in someones boat to help jump start the class down here, but unfortunately I don't even have the funds to do that. Who knows, I may sell a few "not as vital" organs and do it anyway. LOL

    Paul
    Lots of good points here, with the part in bold a big factor for me. Good post Paul!!
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    ....... David 519 is 100% correct........

    Quote Originally Posted by fuelinmyveins82 View Post
    .....I think people forget that racing is supposed to fun. Losing shouldn't be discouraging it should motivate you work on your pile to make it faster.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by EVILFORCE View Post
    Hi Paul You would not happen to have a SBC sitting around looking for a hull do you?

    P.S. It is my understand the way Grinch works the restrictor plate thing is taht if lets say I have a better boat and have a better motor even though it is a legal motor he can shut only me down with the plate. AND i WOULD HAVE APROBLEM WITH THAT.
    It is my understanding that the intent of the restrictor plate is to keep a boat within the spirit of the class (under 85 MPH) which in turn keeps APBA off our backs. Remember SS started out as a stock class and I can assure you there is very little that is stock about a SS motor. GM never put anywhere near the effort into building a stock 427 that goes into these boats. And when the class first started the speeds were much slower. If the SE class was to follow that example, we would wind up being a capsule class as well, which defeats the purpose of the class.
    So many projects, so little time

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    Senior Member EVILFORCE's Avatar
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    These motors are a Damn near stock motor. So if you build one legal it will not push a boat to 85 mph.We might be good to get 375 hp. Correct me if I am wrong. So I never see them with a capsule but if someone is capable of building a legal motor that is better then the others get panelized taht is not rightis not right.

    P.S Snoc. These are not 427. They are 350 max.
    Last edited by EVILFORCE; 11-28-2012 at 02:14 PM.
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    Could a GM Rocket block be used? Seems like there have been a lot of blown up motors in the NW region this year.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EVILFORCE View Post
    These motors are a Damn near stock motor. So if you build one legal it will not push a boat to 85 mph.We might be good to get 375 hp. Correct me if I am wrong. So I never see them with a capsule but if someone is capable of building a legal motor that is better then the others get panelized taht is not rightis not right.

    P.S Snoc. These are not 427. They are 350 max.
    363ci max, just sayin

    Quote Originally Posted by steveo143 View Post
    Could a GM Rocket block be used? Seems like there have been a lot of blown up motors in the NW region this year.
    Here's the rules for SE Class
    RULE 55 – SPORTSMAN ENTRY (SE) CLASS SE (Sportsman Entry) is an entry level class intended to promote a fun, affordable class with a maximum speed of 85 mph using only GM or Ford cast iron small block and cast iron heads derived from passenger or truck model vehicles sold in North America (on road vehicles only), and abiding by inboard runabout and safety rules.
    55.1 General Rules 55.1.1 A prop shaft release is recommended but not required until Jan. 2016.
    55.1.2 Maximum speed of 85 mph is allowed.
    55.1.2.1 Starts may be either clock start or flag start. For flag start lane selection shall be by draw.
    55.1.2.2 A GPS may be run in a heat of racing to determine speeds that may require the use of a restrictor plate.
    55.1.2.3 Because this is a speed limited class, there shall be no competition or kilo records kept.
    55.1.3 Minimum length of an SE hull is 16 feet.
    55.1.4 Minimum width of a SE hull is 72 inches.
    55.1.5 Hulls under these minimums which competed in an older racing class are to be grandfathered. Contact the Class Chairman for confirmation.
    55.1.6 Minimum weight, including driver and safety equipment shall be 1850 pounds weighed immediately after a heat of racing, after draining the hull of water.
    55.1.7 If a hull with a safety capsule participates, it must start and race from the outside.
    55.1.8 SE boats are to run with only two-bladed propellers.
    55.2 Hull Configuration
    55.2.1 The hull must conform to the flatbottom hull requirements as specified in the Technical Manual for the Inspection of Racing Runabouts. Non-current hulls which do not conform to these specifications may be exempted by petition to the Class Chairman.
    55.2.2 All fins shall be mounted between the chines on the underside of the hull.
    55.3 Engine
    55.3.1 General Notes
    55.3.1.1 No titanium engine parts are allowed. 55.3.2 Block Assembly. Any GM cast iron small block or Ford cast iron Windsor small block engine block designed for general automotive or truck use may be used.
    55.3.3 Bore and Stroke.. Maximum Bore x Stroke is 4.065” x 3.500”
    55.3.4 Crankshaft. Any aftermarket crankshaft may be used.
    55.3.5 Pistons.
    55.3.5.1 Only flat top pistons with valve relief(s) are permitted.
    55.3.5.2 Any aftermarket pistons may be used..
    55.3.6 Connecting Rods. Any aftermarket steel connecting rods may be used.
    55.3.7 Cylinder Heads. 55.3.7.1 Only stock GM or Ford Windsor cylinder heads with in-line valves.may be used.
    55.3.7.2 No porting, polishing, or grinding is permitted in ports or combustion chambers.
    55.3.7.3 Heads shall have a maximum intake runner volume of 170 cc
    55.3.7.4 Combustion chamber volume using compressed gaskets and deck height shall meet the following values:
    Compressed Gasket and Deck Height in Inches
    Minimum Volume in cc’s 0.100” 56 cc (GM 305 Head only)
    0.085
    64 cc
    0.070”
    68 cc
    0.055”
    72 cc
    0.040”
    76 cc
    55.3.8 Camshaft and Valve Train
    55.3.8.1 Camshafts.
    55.3.8.1.1 Only flat tappet camshaft and lifters may be used. 55.3.8.1.2 Either hydraulic or mechanical lifters with a maximum diameter of 0.843” for GM or 0.876" for Ford may be used. 55.3.8.1.3 Maximum lift, measured at the valve, shall not exceed 0.450” (lift is to be inspected @zero lash)..
    55.3.8.2 Timing Chain. Use of any chain set or gear drive of dual idler design only is permitted.
    55.3.8.3 Valves. 55.3.8.3.1 All steel or stainless steel valves with a minimum valve stem diameter of 11/32” with a minimum 0.340/0.341 stem diameter 55.3.8.3.2 Maximum diameter of intake valve is 1.945” for GM .GM 305 heads and Ford heads 1.845". 55.3.8.3.3 Maximum diameter of exhaust valve is 1.505” for GM and 1.545" for Ford.
    55.3.8.4 Valve Springs. Valve springs shall have a maximum diameter of 1.260” for GM and 1.445" for Ford.. 55.3.8.5 Rocker Arms. 55.3.8.5.1 Roller type rocker arms with a maximum ratio of 1.52 for GM or 1.60 for Ford may be used.(Lift at cam x 1.5 for GM or 1.60 for Fords helps determine legal rocker ratios) may be used. 55.3.8.5.2 Studs and/or guide plates with 5/16” pushrods may be used. 55.3.8.6 Adjusting Nut.. Any adjusting nut, posi loc, strut girdle may be used. No shaft type rocker assy
    55.3.9 Intake System
    55.3.9.1 Intake Manifold.
    55.3.9.1.1 Any production style as cast/as produced iron or aluminum intake manifold may be used
    55.3.9.1.2 Sheetmetal or tunnel ram style intake manifolds are expressly prohibited.
    55.3.9.2 Other Intake System
    55.3.9.2.1 A carburetor spacer is required; it shall have a minimum thickness of 0.500” (including gaskets) and a maximum thickness of 2.25” (including gaskets. The spacer may be wedge shaped, if desired, providing it fits within the above envelope. A restrictor plate, if required, shall be in addition to this thickness.
    55.3.9.2.2 The intake manifold may be matched or blended to the carburetor spacer.
    55.3.9.2.3 Use of any intake scoop, velocity stack, and/or air cleaner is permitted.
    55.3.10 Fuel System
    55.3.10.1 Carburetor
    55.3.10.1.1 Carburetor is to be a Holley #4776. Only the following dimensions are to be inspected.
    55.3.10.1.2 Maximum venturi diameters:
    Primary/Secondary = 1.265”/1.3275”
    55.3.10.1.3 Maximum throttle plate bore is 1.5675”
    55.3.10.2 Fuel and Fuel System
    55.3.10.2.1 Any pump gas may be used, including E85. See Rule 40.18.12
    55.3.10.2.2 Any fuel pump is permitted
    55.3.11 Ignition.
    55.3.11.1 Ignition system may be either points-type system or HEI system
    55.3.11.2 Electronic ignition systems are not permitted. Pertronix distributor points conversions may be used.
    55.3.11.3 Any plug wires may be used. 55.3.11.4 Firing order is to be 18436572 for GM and 13726548 for Ford.
    55.3.12 Exhaust.
    55.3.12.1 Any manifold or steel header with a collecter of the standard straight style may be used
    55.3.12.2 No multi-step or 180 degree systems may be used, single step permitted.
    55.3.13 Lubrication System.
    55.3.13.1 A wet sump system with the oil pump mounted in the stock location is required.
    55.3.13.2 Any oil pan is permitted
    55.3.13.3 Accusump systems are permitted
    55.3.14 Other Specifications
    55.3.14.1.Any gasket may be used.
    55.3.14.2 Vacuum pumps are not allowed.
    55.3.14.3 Use of a heavy duty/SFI flexplate or aluminum flywheel is recommended.
    55.4 Class Chairman.
    55.4.1 The Class Chairman is Paul Grichar. He may be contacted at [email protected].
    55.4.2 Vice Chair is Dave Weber who may be contacted at [email protected]
    55.4.3 The class shall be directed by the Class Chairman and Vice-Chairman through 31 October 2016.
    55.4.4 Rule change proposals for this class shall be submitted to the Class Chairman.
    Last edited by Budweiser; 12-06-2012 at 04:06 PM. Reason: RULES UPDATE

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    Quote Originally Posted by EVILFORCE View Post
    These motors are a Damn near stock motor. So if you build one legal it will not push a boat to 85 mph.We might be good to get 375 hp. Correct me if I am wrong. So I never see them with a capsule but if someone is capable of building a legal motor that is better then the others get panelized taht is not rightis not right.

    P.S Snoc. These are not 427. They are 350 max.
    SS boats run "stock" 427s. And stock 427s made nowhere near the HP the SS boats are getting from them. That is why the rules are so tight and there are penalties for those who over achieve to the potential detriment of the class.
    So many projects, so little time

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