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Choppys Grenade

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    Senior Member Chop Shop's Avatar
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    Default Choppys Grenade

    So as result of this trainwreck, http://www.performanceboats.com/dyno...ction-bbc.html I decided to start another thread pertaining to my current engine build.

    I decided that putting very much money in my cast pistoned low comp 468 is not a great investment. It ended up with a bigger cam, and roller tip rockers and a single carb put back on it. Its gonna stay that way.


    But I have a new engine for the gullwing to build on.

    Heres the boat for reference.
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  3. #2
    Senior Member Chop Shop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    I rather run Dart Iron Eagles than a set of ProCrap. When it loses a valve seat and destroys your engine, you wish you had too.
    So GN, I followed your advice and got some American made heads. I got a set of new gm 502 rec port heads for a good deal. But after pricing out valves, springs, tap/machine for studs adjustable riocker arms etc, they would have put me over the $1000 mark. I had a hard time buying new parts for almost new heads (only 22 hours), especially when these already have SS valves and beef springs.


    So I decided to sell the 502 rec port heads.

    I then bought a pair of low hours Dart Iron Eagle heads in the 308 flavor. They are ready to run. SS intake valves, Inconel exhaust valves, Isky springs, titanium locks/retainers. Here is a copy of the guys ad.......

    ]
    Dart Iron Eagle 308cc ret port cylinder heads to fit big block chevy. Removed from a low hr marine motor. Great heads for street,truck or boat. Heads are flat milled .060 to aprox 110cc combustion chamber. Stainless 2.250 intake & Inconel 1.880 exhaust valves. Isky #8205 springs good for .600 lift cam. Setup for hyd roller. 140 lbs @ seat / 404 lbs @ nose. Topped off with titainuim retainers. All machine work done @ D&G machine in Auburn. Will yield 9.4:1 cr with flat top pistons in a 454.

    Also have hyd roller cam for sale if interested. 226/231 @.050 .567/.575 lift. 108 c/l.

    Im thinking these heads and the hardware installed should play well with the ClaySmith 318 solid lifter flat tapper I have.

  4. #3
    Bostick Racing Engines six-oh-nine's Avatar
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    Good choice on keeping the running engine nearly as is and starting on a new build... you'll end up with a still running boat, and a chance to build exactly what you want and not be in a rush.

    Nice upgrade on the heads. Good starting point, but a little heavy on the spring pressure for something that is not a race only app on a flat tapper. Not saying it won't work... just I wouldn't expect a long happy life out of my cam and lifters. 140 on the seat is a little high, but not outside of reason... but the 400 open is where I'd be a little worried.

    This still gonna be for the blower combo? If so, be careful with the 110cc chambers in your piston selection and resulting static compression ratio... especially if you plan on going with a stroker. 9.4:1 with flat tops in a iron headed 454 is kinda high if you plan on making any sort of boost and running pump gas.

    Just a couple things to consider and keep an eye out for.
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    gn7
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    Sounds like a hydra roller spring more than flat tappet spring.



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    Bostick Racing Engines six-oh-nine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Sounds like a hydra roller spring more than flat tappet spring.
    Yep... even said so in the description.

    Personally, I'd save up and go with the hydraulic roller than swap springs out. If you get a late block like a gen V or VI you can use the factory roller parts and run an aftermarket cam. That would be the easiest and cheapiest way to get a nice step up and use some of the parts you got. You can find whole late motors (gen V or VI) reasonably cheap, end up with a 4 bolt, hyd roller parts, poach out the stuff you want, and ditch the rest.
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    Senior Member Chop Shop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by six-oh-nine View Post
    Good starting point, but a little heavy on the spring pressure for something that is not a race only app on a flat tapper. Not saying it won't work... just I wouldn't expect a long happy life out of my cam and lifters. 140 on the seat is a little high, but not outside of reason... but the 400 open is where I'd be a little worried.
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Sounds like a hydra roller spring more than flat tappet spring.

    I got the specs for the camshaft off the ClaySmith site before it was taken down.

    The site listed these specs for the cam.

    C-318-O-B solid lifter flat tappet
    276*@.50
    lift with 1.75 rocker, .645
    110* lobe seperation
    power to 8500rpm
    closed pressure= 140-150lbs
    open pressure= 380=400lbs


    I couldnt get any closer ordering them from CraigsList Speedshops. Lol!

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    Senior Member Chop Shop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by six-oh-nine View Post

    This still gonna be for the blower combo? If so, be careful with the 110cc chambers in your piston selection and resulting static compression ratio... especially if you plan on going with a stroker. 9.4:1 with flat tops in a iron headed 454 is kinda high if you plan on making any sort of boost and running pump gas.

    Just a couple things to consider and keep an eye out for.
    Can I run a dish top piston if compression needs to be lower for a boost application? Can gaskets/shims be used to fine tune comp ratios also?

  10. #8
    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by six-oh-nine View Post
    Yep... even said so in the description.

    .
    Yea I know you did. I was just agreeing with you, and tossing out there the spring seems like a hyd roller spring more than a flat. It will work, but its stout. I have run Isky's 8005A spring on a flat tappet before, 135/395. Touchy breakin, limited idling time, and damn good oil ALL THE TIME!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chop Shop View Post
    Can I run a dish top piston if compression needs to be lower for a boost application? Can gaskets/shims be used to fine tune comp ratios also?
    Not sure how you get to 9.4 compression with the piston .040 from the head. 8.8 is more like it.



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    Last edited by gn7; 12-02-2012 at 05:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by six-oh-nine View Post
    You can find whole late motors (gen V or VI) reasonably cheap, end up with a 4 bolt, hyd roller parts, poach out the stuff you want, and ditch the rest.
    This is the block I intend to use.

    I am going to tear uit apart and try to identify as much as I can. All I know is its been in a buddies garage for over ten years. He said its supposed to be a 488 or somehting like that with a billet cranshaft.

    I can see J&E pistons and splayed 4 bolt caps and aluminum rods. Its also been filled to the bottom of the water pump inlets and has been machined for O-rings on the deck surface.

    I have measured the bore and it looks to be 4.25-.3ish. Appears to be a 454 or 30 over 454 block. I dont know for sure what the stroke is, I need to roll it over and measure it. I would like to replace the aluminum rods also.

    Any thoughts on this lower end?
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  12. #10
    Blown, OHBA Member Wild Hair's Avatar
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    The pistons are 30 over for a stroker crank, probably 4.25. If its a steel crank you can use it and maybe the pistons. The block is filled to much to use as a lake boat motor in my opinion. I don't think there will be enough cooling water around the cylinders. Just my thoughts on it. Others may think differently about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chop Shop View Post
    This is the block I intend to use.

    I am going to tear uit apart and try to identify as much as I can. All I know is its been in a buddies garage for over ten years. He said its supposed to be a 488 or somehting like that with a billet cranshaft.

    I can see J&E pistons and splayed 4 bolt caps and aluminum rods. Its also been filled to the bottom of the water pump inlets and has been machined for O-rings on the deck surface.

    I have measured the bore and it looks to be 4.25-.3ish. Appears to be a 454 or 30 over 454 block. I dont know for sure what the stroke is, I need to roll it over and measure it. I would like to replace the aluminum rods also.

    Any thoughts on this lower end?
    Aluminum rods? Eh... not a good idea on a lake runner. Aluminum rods have a service life, and unless you know what they have gone thru and the history of them, you are looking at a game of roulette in your bottom end... given a long enough timeline... ALL aluminum rods will fail.

    Filled to water pump holes filled block? Not such a good idea on a lake runner. It will run hot... and will have extremely excessive oil temps on any sort of sustained driving (couple of miles or more). How do I know this? I run a block that has been filled to the bottom of the freeze plugs... and even that WITH a really nice oil cooler the oil temp goes past 260* and keeps climbing on any sustained drive up river. Throw in the additional loads of driving a blower, filled even higher... and you have an oil boiler. Fine for a drag deal... not so much for a driver.

    Dome pistons? Not a good idea for a boosted pump gas deal. Shimming... thicker gaskets... running the pistons way in the hole... all ways that will not work to get the compression down low enough to work. Even if they were flat tops... I still wouldn't sacrafice a nice quench to drop the compression. The answer is an inverted dome dish. Pump gas deal... keep it in the 8-8.5:1 range and boost on the 7lbs range and it will survive on pump gas.

    What you have in the photo is a crankshaft and studs.
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    Bostick Racing Engines six-oh-nine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chop Shop View Post
    I got the specs for the camshaft off the ClaySmith site before it was taken down.

    The site listed these specs for the cam.

    C-318-O-B solid lifter flat tappet
    276*@.50
    lift with 1.75 rocker, .645
    110* lobe seperation
    power to 8500rpm
    closed pressure= 140-150lbs
    open pressure= 380=400lbs


    I couldnt get any closer ordering them from CraigsList Speedshops. Lol!
    Again... I would not run those springs with your intended use. Plan on idling around? I'm sure you will. Plan on running up around 8500 rpm? Not very likely. There is a lot to consider in what springs will work with what valvetrain and intended use. IF you planned on running 8500 with the heavy 3/8 big block valvetrain, and it was not going to spend any significant time idling... then yes. But seeing that is not what pretty much 90% of lake boaters do... then about 130-135 on the seat and about 320-350 would be as much as I would run on that profile with ... and even at that, I'd still run the oiler lifters that Schneider, Crower, and many other cam grinders that deal with flat tappers sell.

    Of course that is just my opinion... but then again... I do not have failures with large flat tappets in boats... wonder why?

    FWIW... the springs @ .600 lift being 408lbs would be about [email protected] .650 lift... and even ignoring that... 408>380-400.
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    Senior Member Chop Shop's Avatar
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    Im not ignoring good advice but Im not a "lake boat" driver. I rarely idle the boat. Im an asshole and I live out in the mountains where open headers and high speed are OK. If my boat fires up, you can bet its not idling unless its inside the bouys.


    The oil temps were a concern of mine, but my local builder assures me that a good oil cooler will solve that issue.

    The aluminum rods are going to go for sure, need to figure out what kinda rods to replace them with.

    I dont know the size of those pistons yet (dome CC) but if they are high comp, I might just toss it together without the blower and run the Team G Tram I have.

    Other than pistons/comp ratio all other varibles can work with either the blower or the tram. Cam and heads could be the same with both, correct?


    Im into that lower end for $1000 and the iron eagles for $750. I am going to use the block and crank for sure if possible and change rods and maybe pistons too.

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    Bostick Racing Engines six-oh-nine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chop Shop View Post
    Im not ignoring good advice but Im not a "lake boat" driver. I rarely idle the boat. Im an asshole and I live out in the mountains where open headers and high speed are OK. If my boat fires up, you can bet its not idling unless its inside the bouys.


    The oil temps were a concern of mine, but my local builder assures me that a good oil cooler will solve that issue.

    The aluminum rods are going to go for sure, need to figure out what kinda rods to replace them with.

    I dont know the size of those pistons yet (dome CC) but if they are high comp, I might just toss it together without the blower and run the Team G Tram I have.

    Other than pistons/comp ratio all other varibles can work with either the blower or the tram. Cam and heads could be the same with both, correct?


    Im into that lower end for $1000 and the iron eagles for $750. I am going to use the block and crank for sure if possible and change rods and maybe pistons too.

    I will restate again...

    It will run hot... and will have extremely excessive oil temps on any sort of sustained driving (couple of miles or more). How do I know this? I run a block that has been filled to the bottom of the freeze plugs... and even that WITH a really nice oil cooler the oil temp goes past 260* and keeps climbing on any sustained drive up river. Throw in the additional loads of driving a blower, filled even higher... and you have an oil boiler. Fine for a drag deal... not so much for a driver.
    Do you primarily spend your boating time at the race track? Be it circles or drags? Or do you spend it on a lake or river? If the answer is the second... or even half and half... you are a lake/river boater. Do not confuse lake/river boater with "cruiser", "seld" or any other term that infers a big ol' 21' open bow cruiser type boat... a lake/river boat just means it is NOT a race boat.


    If you have all your questions already answered, then why waste your time the opinions of us morons here?
    Last edited by six-oh-nine; 12-03-2012 at 05:07 PM.
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