Anyone here proficient in physics that can help me make sense of a few things?
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Anyone here proficient in physics that can help me make sense of a few things?

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    Or Seth, either one Budweiser's Avatar
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    Default Anyone here proficient in physics that can help me make sense of a few things?

    Trying to understand a few things. First is a Radian.

    In reading the Wikipedia page on it...

    The radius of a circle, in engine terms would be half the stroke, as the connecting rod journal axis creates a revolution, it makes a circle. A 4" stroke will create a 4" circle and the radius of that circle is 2". A Radian is a portion of the circles circumference equal to the radius. So, if the rod journal were at top dead center and you rotated the crank one Radian, the center axis of the journal would move along circular curve of the circumference 2". In a sense, creating a triangle 2" from the center of the crank to the rod journal at TDC, 2" along the circumference (of the circle the rod journal travels), and 2" from that point back to the center of the crankshaft.

    I'm trying to figure out how many Radian the connecting rod journals axis travels in one stroke, from TDC to BDC. The best I make of it, and it's becoming more clear as I write this, is there are 3.14 (Pi) Radian in a semi-circle and 6.28 (two Pi) Radian in a circle. I should be able to check this against the equation for finding the circumference of a circle.

    The circumference of a circle = Pi x Diameter = 3.14 x 4 = 12.56" circumference. Half of that circle (180°) = 6.28".

    One Radian of a 4" circle = 2"... 3.14 Radians x 2" = 6.28". AWESOME, that checks out for a half circle, or one stroke from TDC to BDC.

    I think I just wrapped my mind around that part.

    What I'm ultimately trying to understand is the equation for finding peak piston velocity, which calls for replacing a constant known angle in a triangle into a known angular velocity, or a moving angle. Angular velocity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The three points of this triangle being the wrist pin axis, rotating axis of the crankshaft, and the axis of the connecting rod journal. The known sides of that triangle are from the crank axis to the rod journal axis (half of stroke) and the connecting rod length. The known angle is degrees ATDC.

    My best understanding at this point, is a known constant angle in the "Law of Cosines" formula (used to find unknown angles/legnths with known angles/legnths) the equation is replaced with a known angular velocity to find the unknown angular velocity. So if we know that the rod journal sweeps from 0° to 180° in a certain time, or a certain number of repetitions in a given time (RPM), we can calculate the speed of the wrist pin axis. That's what I understand on a theory basis, but haven't 100% wrapped my mind around it to the point of full understanding.

    Any input you have to help me further understand would be deeply appreciated.
    Last edited by Budweiser; 01-23-2013 at 05:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Budweiser View Post
    Trying to understand a few things. First is a Radian.

    In reading the Wikipedia page on it...

    The radius of a circle, in engine terms would be half the stroke, as the connecting rod journal axis creates a revolution, it makes a circle. A 4" stroke will create a 4" circle and the radius of that circle is 2". A Radian is a portion of the circles circumference equal to the radius. So, if the rod journal were at top dead center and you rotated the crank one Radian, the center axis of the journal would move along circular curve of the circumference 2". In a sense, creating a triangle 2" from the center of the crank to the rod journal at TDC, 2" along the circumference (of the circle the rod journal travels), and 2" from that point back to the center of the crankshaft.

    I'm trying to figure out how many Radian the connecting rod journals axis travels in one stroke, from TDC to BDC. The best I make of it, and it's becoming more clear as I write this, is there are 3.14 (Pi) Radian in a semi-circle and 6.28 (two Pi) Radian in a circle. I should be able to check this against the equation for finding the circumference of a circle.

    The circumference of a circle = Pi x Diameter = 3.14 x 4 = 12.56" circumference. Half of that circle (180°) = 6.28".

    One Radian of a 4" circle = 2"... 3.14 Radians x 2" = 6.28". AWESOME, that checks out for a half circle, or one stroke from TDC to BDC.

    I think I just wrapped my mind around that part.

    What I'm ultimately trying to understand is the equation for finding peak piston velocity, which calls for replacing a constant known angle in a triangle into a known angular velocity, or a moving angle. Angular velocity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The three points of this triangle being the wrist pin axis, rotating axis of the crankshaft, and the axis of the connecting rod journal. The known sides of that triangle are from the crank axis to the rod journal axis (half of stroke) and the connecting rod length. The known angle is degrees ATDC.

    My best understanding at this point, is a known constant angle in the "Law of Cosines" formula (used to find unknown angles/legnths with known angles/legnths) the equation is replaced with a known angular velocity to find the unknown angular velocity. So if we know that the rod journal sweeps from 0° to 180° in a certain time, or a certain number of repetitions in a given time (RPM), we can calculate the speed of the wrist pin axis. That's what I understand on a theory basis, but haven't 100% wrapped my mind around it to the point of full understanding.

    Any input you have to help me further understand would be deeply appreciated.
    I do it the easy way. I look up the piston travel per degree on a chart and look for the max positon movement.



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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    I do it the easy way. I look up the piston travel per degree on a chart and look for the max positon movement.
    I appreciate the easy way. Nothing wrong with it at all. There's even online calculators.

    Just outta curiosity, are these chart's you speak of on line or hard copy? Are there different charts for different rod ratios? Might be helpful in understanding everything to have a visual. Gotta link if they're on-line?

    Also, when you reference the chart, I assume it gives you the crank angle at which it occurs, but how do you translate that into a measurable speed in fps?
    Last edited by Budweiser; 01-23-2013 at 01:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Budweiser View Post
    I appreciate the easy way. Nothing wrong with it at all. There's even online calculators.

    Just outta curiosity, are these chart's you speak of on line or hard copy? Are there different charts for different rod ratios? Might be helpful in understanding everything to have a visual. Gotta link if they're on-line?

    Also, when you reference the chart, I assume it gives you the crank angle at which it occurs, but how do you translate that into a measurable speed in fps?
    Yes they are out there in different rod ratios. In have some in hard copy and some are online. They are all available in heard copy if I hit "PRINT"

    Of course they give you the crank angle, they are done in piston movement PER DEGREE!!!!!!

    I guess if you need to know the exact psiton speed, which ever changing thru the entire stroke, you could figure it out by determining how long it takes a crankshaft to rotate 1 degree and how far the psiton moved in that amount of time.
    But he piston is pretty much in a state of acceleration and de-acceleration.

    Like trying to determine how fast a fueler is going at any given foot, or inch, or even 1/4 inch, or ..... of the track or the exact location of an electron in its obit.



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    Not a chart, but it illustrates that not much change in speed/acceleration takes place over much of the full rotation. The majority of the change is at TDC and BDC and they basically swap accleration loss or gain. You are slowing it down on one end of the stroke and speeding it up on the other.

    As the piston losses velocity up to and away from TDC with a longer rod, it gains velocity at BDC. Opposite when the rod gets shorter.








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    Last edited by gn7; 01-23-2013 at 03:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Budweiser View Post
    Trying to understand a few things. First is a Radian.

    In reading the Wikipedia page on it...

    The radius of a circle, in engine terms would be half the stroke, as the connecting rod journal axis creates a revolution, it makes a circle. A 4" stroke will create a 4" circle and the radius of that circle is 2". A Radian is a portion of the circles circumference equal to the radius. So, if the rod journal were at top dead center and you rotated the crank one Radian, the center axis of the journal would move along circular curve of the circumference 2". In a sense, creating a triangle 2" from the center of the crank to the rod journal at TDC, 2" along the circumference (of the circle the rod journal travels), and 2" from that point back to the center of the crankshaft.

    I'm trying to figure out how many Radian the connecting rod journals axis travels in one stroke, from TDC to BDC. The best I make of it, and it's becoming more clear as I write this, is there are 3.14 (Pi) Radian in a semi-circle and 6.28 (two Pi) Radian in a circle. I should be able to check this against the equation for finding the circumference of a circle.

    The circumference of a circle = Pi x Diameter = 3.14 x 4 = 12.56" circumference. Half of that circle (180°) = 6.28".

    One Radian of a 4" circle = 2"... 3.14 Radians x 2" = 6.28". AWESOME, that checks out for a half circle, or one stroke from TDC to BDC.

    I think I just wrapped my mind around that part.

    What I'm ultimately trying to understand is the equation for finding peak piston velocity, which calls for replacing a constant known angle in a triangle into a known angular velocity, or a moving angle. Angular velocity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The three points of this triangle being the wrist pin axis, rotating axis of the crankshaft, and the axis of the connecting rod journal. The known sides of that triangle are from the crank axis to the rod journal axis (half of stroke) and the connecting rod length. The known angle is degrees ATDC.

    My best understanding at this point, is a known constant angle in the "Law of Cosines" formula (used to find unknown angles/legnths with known angles/legnths) the equation is replaced with a known angular velocity to find the unknown angular velocity. So if we know that the rod journal sweeps from 0° to 180° in a certain time, or a certain number of repetitions in a given time (RPM), we can calculate the speed of the wrist pin axis. That's what I understand on a theory basis, but haven't 100% wrapped my mind around it to the point of full understanding.

    Any input you have to help me further understand would be deeply appreciated.
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    BTW Budweiser, its not physics. Its geometry, trig and alittle calculus thrown in. But its not physics.



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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Not a chart, but it illustrates that not much change in speed/acceleration takes place over much of the full rotation. The majority of the change is at TDC and BDC and they basically swap accleration loss or gain. You are slowing it down on one end of the stroke and speeding it up on the other.

    As the piston losses velocity up to and away from TDC with a longer rod, it gains velocity at BDC. Opposite when the rod gets shorter.
    Very constructive post Bob. Thanks!

    I've seen this particular one in my research. What the graph doesn't mention as posted here, is the stroke and rpm. However, what it does show is (looking at the 2:1 rod ratio) peak piston speed reaches about 7500 feet per minute, or 125 feet per second, or 1500 inches per second.

    If the piston is in a 4.5" bore, it's surface area is... (radius x radius x Pi) 4.5 diameter/2= a radius of 2.25 x 2.25 radius = 5.0625 x 3.14 = 15.89625 sq. inches. (Round to 15.90)

    If 15.90 square inches is moving at a rate of 1500 inches per second, it is drawing at a rate 23850 cubic inches per second. Divide by the number of cubic inches in a cubic foot,1728 and you get 13.80 cubic feet per second. Multiply by 60 gives you maximum CFM draw of 828cfm.

    Again, we don't know what rpm or stroke is in the graph...

    Does that mean anything that's worth anything? Dunno.

    I still want to learn and completely understand the equation used to find peak piston velocity.

    Anyone? A little help here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    BTW Budweiser, its not physics. Its geometry, trig and alittle calculus thrown in. But its not physics.
    Calculating the angles would be geometry, however once those angles are in motion, I'm pretty sure it's physics.

    But hey! I never made it through geometry, so WTF do I know?

    What ever it is... I want to understand it. Call it knitting for all I care.

    The quote below is from: Wikipedia. What is a Radian?

    Use in physics

    The radian is widely used in physics when angular measurements are required. For example, angular velocity is typically measured in radians per second (rad/s). One revolution per second is equal to 2π radians per second.
    Similarly, angular acceleration is often measured in radians per second per second (rad/s2).
    For the purpose of dimensional analysis, the units are s−1 and s−2 respectively.
    Likewise, the phase difference of two waves can also be measured in radians. For example, if the phase difference of two waves is (k·2π) radians, where k is an integer, they are considered in phase, whilst if the phase difference of two waves is (k·2π + π), where k is an integer, they are considered in antiphase.
    See why I'm having trouble???
    Last edited by Budweiser; 01-23-2013 at 05:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    The acceleration would be fisiks
    Well shoot, if you know all this... Help a guy out woncha?

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    After looking at graph charts for a BBC 4" stroke with rods at 6.135, 6.385, 6.535 on the same graph, and not being able to see the 3 lines as anything but one thick line, I really don't get to overly exciting about the location, or even the velocity of the piston at any given point. I
    I like long rods for 4 reasons. It MAY take a little load strain off the piston and pin at the top of the stroke, better ring seal due to better rod angle. more time for the cylinder pressure to rise before decending down the bore, possibly allowing for less timing, but also possibly adding to the chance of detontation, and less rod angularity there for less friction on the piston skirt.

    I could care less about any of the other aspects of long rods. I know Steel has thoughts about the other things regarding longs rods as do others. It one of those things when doing any dyno testing, what exactly was the reason for any gains or losses.

    Guys like sonny Leonard could care less about rod length. He simply wants rod long enough to get the piston pin to clear the counter weights. Rod length = stroke +2" is pretty normal for him and amny others that build huge CID engines.
    One of Scott Shafiroffs best sellers is a 598 with a 4.5 crank and 6.535 rod in a low deck. When you look at the pin CH, short ass skirt and the rod angle, it is a major loser for rings seal and friction in my mind, but he sells the shit out of them.



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    The graph you (GN7) posted is from one of the pages I've been referencing for the calculation.

    ftlracing.com

    Walk me through it, please.

    Anyone?
    Last edited by Budweiser; 01-23-2013 at 05:46 PM.

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    Not sure what exactly needs explaining. Its like I said in an earlier post. The shorter rod is quicker up into the chamber and out, both acclerate at the same rate at some point in the revolution, then the short rod is a little lower thru the bottom of the stroke.

    There is something you need to pay atttention to when looking at graphs like this. The one you linked was between a 5" and 7" rod on a 3.5 stroke. Ever seen a 7" rod on a 3.50 stroke? I have built a 6 rod on a 3.00 stroke before. But the point I am making is that the comparsion is considerably larger than you will normally see when looking at different possible combos.

    lLook at this graph. A 4" rod compared to a 12" rod. that would be like comparing a stock 6.135 BBC rod to a 18 3/8" rod. Not going to happen. the graphs like this are great because it allows you to see that something is happening to the piston velocity. But in the real world, its not that big of a difference. Like I said, I have a graph for 3 rod lengths used on 4" BBCs and the lines are right on top of each other and look like in thick line.





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