(Attempting) Linear-ish air flow with an Enderle Bird for EFI
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(Attempting) Linear-ish air flow with an Enderle Bird for EFI

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    Default (Attempting) Linear-ish air flow with an Enderle Bird for EFI

    Hey guys,
    I starting posting this toward the end of the "Enderle Injection in a Cruiser" post once I bought my dad and brother out on the boat and decided to try converting it to EFI. I wanted to start a separate post specific to some of the unique aspects of making a Bird hat work on EFI and to solicit some feedback and suggestions (I know, be careful what you wish for ). I'll paste the relevant parts of the last thread and will try to add pics soon. Thanks again for all the input so far!
    Sean




    "The motor has a brand new 540 with a dart block, scat crank, scat rods, JE pistons and large solid roller cam. We have a set of dart aluminum heads, and a set of brodix aluminum heads, and I think we would use which ever head would yield the lowest static compression. We have roller rockers with a stud girdle or jessel shaft mount rockers. Currently the motor is intercooled with a magnesium 1271, and our goal is to retain the intercooler and possibly trade the blower for a polished aluminum one. For ignition we have a MSD pro-mag or a vertex mag. (EDIT: I will be going with sequential ignition using LS truck coils. I will add a 36-1 toothed wheel on the crank and using a mid-90's Vortec distributor for the cam sensor and to run the oil pump)"



    "I bought my brother and dad out on these motors and plan on putting it in a 21' v-drive Rayson Craft I just purchased. The "idea" is to convert to EFI while retaining the Enderle Hat. I've seen examples of modified butterflies etc. to help increase the driveability so I will be trying some of these options. I'll be using an MS3 to control everything and plan on setting it up to run on 91. There are a couple of guys on here that have shared some great information and suggestions that has helped with the research phase of this project (as well as guys on other sites). There are a couple EFI projects I am working on (including an all aluminum twin turbo 4.6 4v Cobra motor going in a 65 fastback mustang) and half of the fun for me it trying different approaches and learning along the way. There are definitely easier ways to go in converting this to EFI (4-barrel throttle bodies, Hilborn Stack injection etc), but trying to get the hat to a point where it is effective during partial throttle is part of what interests me in this project. I'm probably 2-3 months away from getting this project started, but I'll try to set up a post with pics and progress when I do to get feedback and suggestions. Thanks to all of you that have responded so far, it's what makes forums like these so great."



    "Hey guys, just wanted to give an update on this project. Needed to put it back burner for a while because I'm finishing up a 63 1/2 Galaxie 500 with a 99 Mustang Cobra 4v and trans, but summer will be here before we know it and I'd like to have this running before it's over (pipe dream, I know...)

    I was originally going to try and set this up with seq. port injection and include an additional 4 injectors set up on batch fire above the blower to keep the rotors lubed but none of the "off the shelf" intakes left enough room between the intercooler and valve covers to fit the injectors (if anyone knows of one, please let me know!). The only option I could see was to spend $1.5k+ on a custom sheet metal blower intake or build one my own. Since I already have quite a bit of money to spend on other parts and don't feel comfortable building the intake myself (yet... ), for now I'm going to build an injector plate and have all the injectors running above the blower on batch fire while I have the boat in mock-up. I plan on getting the boat running for this summer while I finalize how I want to build the interior and decide on the gelcoat colors etc. Next winter I plan on pulling it all apart, sending the hull out for gelcoat etc, rebuild the trailer, send all the alum out to powder coat, build the interior and look back into the seq. port injection etc for the motor.
    As for the Enderle hat, from what I've found in my research and the feedback I've received, the main issue with the bird hat (or any Enderle hat) is the non-linear air flow delivery that occurs once the butterflies open past the narrow venturi (I know it isn't a "venturi" per se, just not sure what else to call it). My idea is to remove the butterflies/shaft, make a mold using 4.375 polished tubing and back-fill with an epoxy resin to extend the "venturi" an additional 2-3" behind the butterflies. This should help regulate the air through the bottom half of the butterflies (since the bottom rotates into the hat). I will then build a plug that will attach to the back side of the top half of the butterflies that will regulate the air coming through the top half (imagine a sphere cut into 4 pieces and using one of those as the plug that would allow the opening to progressively get bigger as the butterfly opens) since there isn't enough room out front to extend the "venturi" .
    I know this is a hell of a lot of work considering I can just buy 2 4-barrel throttle bodies, throw them on top of the blower and call it a day but as I said in my original post, half of the fun in projects like this for me is trying something new and seeing if I can make it work. I'll try to post pics as I progress. There are quite a few of you on here that have already offered a ton of great information, any additional feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again and wish me luck, I'll need it!!!!!"



    "Throttle bore..... Thanks Budweiser! I hadn't had my cup of coffee yet when i wrote this and was having a bit of a brain fart

    Thanks for the complements but I can't take credit for the "1/4 sphere" butterfly plug idea, it's a variation of an idea I got from one of the guys on the boards here (Maximus I think?).

    I poured the epoxy last week and was able to extend the throttle bores back into the hat, looks like it actually came out pretty good. I didn't realize until just before I poured the epoxy that the front-most mounting holes inside the hat are just behind the butterflies. Once poured, I could have drilled the epoxy out using a bit the same dia. as the mounting hole, but I would have had to clearance for the head of the mounting bolt by hand since i wouldn't be able to get a drill or any other tool inside the hat. This sounded like a nightmare so I decided instead to lean the hat back (towards the top of the hat) so that the epoxy built up and dried at an angle. This left me with a throttle bore that was extended around 2.5" on top and about .5" on the bottom. Since the bottom half of the butterfly comes out of the hat and only the top goes in as the throttle is opened (I think I got this backwards in my last post), I really only needed the top half of the throttle bore to be extended to get the desired effect (I hope....).

    I'll start building the 1/4 sphere butterfly plugs next, just trying to figure out the best way to make them. I have a cheap mill with a rotary table so my thought was to take a 4.5" x 4.5" x 2.5" piece of aluminum and machine it into a 4.375" circle first, then starting at the bottom I'll bring the end mill up and in (I'll do the math to get rough estimates of just how much) in incremental steps to get the rough profile and finish by hand. I'll have to do this twice and then cut them in half to end up with a 1/4 sphere. I'll end up with an extra plug but there's a damn good chance I screw AT LEAST one of these up so it will be good to have a spare. Can anyone think of a better way to do this (short of buying a CNC Mill or Lathe )?

    Just ordered the injectors and I'll start building the injector plate once they get in. I already have the material and design drawn out, just want to confirm the dimensions of the injectors before the cutting starts."
    Last edited by StreetMoto; 01-26-2013 at 08:31 AM.

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    If insufficient space between blower/manifold and valve covers to mount injectors, could a spacer be made, raising the blower and drill/weld mounting bungs into that spacer?

    Large chunk of alum and cut with a water jet.

    Injectors could be mounted internal using bulkhead fittings on fuel rails.

    Just a couple ideas.

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    How about using a screw blower and then it doesnt need any fuel above the blower ?
    Then you could go with sequential port injection.
    I've seen some guys use a tunnel ram manifold and saw off the top part and weld a flat plate on to mount the blower.
    Then there would be room to weld in injector bungs.

    It seems like all the Enderle hat / EFI projects I've seen use a bug catcher and even then they block off at least one butterfly.
    You might calculate the maximum CFM that your engine can flow and see how that compares to the butterfly size.

    Andrew is the Megasquirt authority around here. He would be a good one to talk to about programming.
    If you were to go with a FAST XFI I could email a program.

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    No one cares about your buddies old antiquated garden hose technology.
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    I think I could run more boost but it's a real hand full right now

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    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unchained View Post
    How about using a screw blower and then it doesnt need any fuel above the blower ?
    Then you could go with sequential port injection.
    I've seen some guys use a tunnel ram manifold and saw off the top part and weld a flat plate on to mount the blower.
    Then there would be room to weld in injector bungs.

    It seems like all the Enderle hat / EFI projects I've seen use a bug catcher and even then they block off at least one butterfly.
    You might calculate the maximum CFM that your engine can flow and see how that compares to the butterfly size.

    Andrew is the Megasquirt authority around here. He would be a good one to talk to about programming.
    If you were to go with a FAST XFI I could email a program.
    Its a common misconception that the roots needs fuel in it to operate. It doesn't. They run dry when mounted on a diesel. The GN 44 boat doesn't run fuel in the blower when its running the EFI, and it uses a hat. They are still working it out, but the dry blower is not the issue they are having. Its more like what the OP is talking about. LINEAR AIR FLOW, or even trackable air flow thru the butterflies.
    Blocking off butterflies only reduces the total air flow capability, it does nothing to make the air that is being flowed more trackable or perdictable. The problem with hat butterflies is that they flow considerly different percentage of the total flow with each degree of angle.



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    I'm constantly reminded how much of a resource this forum really is. I wanted to thank Wizbang for the call yesterday morning. I sent him a PM with a question and included my phone number. He's never met or spoke to me in the past but still didn't mind calling and spending over an hour not only giving me a wealth of feedback and suggestions, but taking the time to explain the logic behind and trail/error behind each of them. He also gave me quite a few names of others to reach out to that are specialists in quite a few areas (EFI, Blowers etc). It's guys like Wizbang that take the time to help newbs like me that make this forum so great.
    Thanks again Wizbang!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieB View Post
    If insufficient space between blower/manifold and valve covers to mount injectors, could a spacer be made, raising the blower and drill/weld mounting bungs into that spacer?

    Large chunk of alum and cut with a water jet.

    Injectors could be mounted internal using bulkhead fittings on fuel rails.

    Just a couple ideas.
    Thanks for the feedback Charlie. I actually thought about this but it would still require quite a bit of mil work on my intake since the flange the blower bolts to is what is creating the issue. With a spacer, I could potentially bolt it to the intake and mill the two at the same time to make room, but since I'm going with batch fire for this summer, I want to try my hand at building a sheet metal intake next winter. As with everything else related to this project, most of the fun for me is trying something new so this is something I'm excited to start working on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unchained View Post
    How about using a screw blower and then it doesnt need any fuel above the blower ?
    Then you could go with sequential port injection.
    I've seen some guys use a tunnel ram manifold and saw off the top part and weld a flat plate on to mount the blower.
    Then there would be room to weld in injector bungs.

    It seems like all the Enderle hat / EFI projects I've seen use a bug catcher and even then they block off at least one butterfly.
    You might calculate the maximum CFM that your engine can flow and see how that compares to the butterfly size.

    Andrew is the Megasquirt authority around here. He would be a good one to talk to about programming.
    If you were to go with a FAST XFI I could email a program.
    Thanks Unchained. Since I already had the blower and Bird and there's already a truck-load of cash I need to spend on this project, I wanted to see if I could make it work with what I had.

    I know the bird is TOTAL overkill and even thought the bug would be overkill as well (looking at the total CFM), it would definitely make what I'm trying to accomplish much easier. As I've mentioned in some of my posts, it's trying to make combinations that others have suggested won't work, actually work that makes this fun for me. If I was just trying to put something together as quickly (and cheap) as possible, I definitely wouldn't be going this route.

    Andrew has already been a HUGE help. He's another guy that I sent a PM to and has offered up tons of feedback and help. It's amazing how many people like Andrew are willing to take time out of their day to share what they've learned. Since I already have two other Megasquirt projects going, I'm going to stick with it for this one but I really appreciate the offer to help if I went with FAST, very cool of you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Its a common misconception that the roots needs fuel in it to operate. It doesn't. They run dry when mounted on a diesel. The GN 44 boat doesn't run fuel in the blower when its running the EFI, and it uses a hat. They are still working it out, but the dry blower is not the issue they are having. Its more like what the OP is talking about. LINEAR AIR FLOW, or even trackable air flow thru the butterflies.
    Blocking off butterflies only reduces the total air flow capability, it does nothing to make the air that is being flowed more trackable or perdictable. The problem with hat butterflies is that they flow considerly different percentage of the total flow with each degree of angle.
    This is good to know GN, I was always told I needed fuel through the blower. When I first started researching EFI, something that seemed to be consistent was with a motor on a dyno and all things being equal (same intake etc), motors with a carb tended to make more HP than the same set up with a throttle body and port injection. The reason was always stated that since the carb adds fuel much further up the path, the fuel has more time to act like a chemical intercooler and results in a cooler charge. What are your thoughts on achieving the same benefit by adding fuel before the blower as opposed to at the ports? Could it help create a denser charge and potentially decrease heat soak in the blower case? Maybe those benefits will be lost by not having the option to tune the fuel at each port? Thanks again for the info!

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    Quote Originally Posted by StreetMoto View Post
    As I've mentioned in some of my posts, it's trying to make combinations that others have suggested won't work, actually work that makes this fun for me. !
    Another thought would be to hollow out the inside of the hat and put two normal throttle bodys inside that would have injector bungs, TPS switch mount and IAC already on them. You could make that run excellent and have no challenges. That would retain the Enderle hat look but eliminate the functionality issues. You could link the inner throttle bodies to the Enderle butterflys or just leave the Enderles open.

    The butterflys are so big on one of those that I can foresee throttle resolution problems that may be hard or impossible to overcome.
    It may require some special linkage that opens the butterflys one at a time.
    Just for comparison my engine has two 2 1/2" throttle bodies and that's more than enough although they are after the compressors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    No one cares about your buddies old antiquated garden hose technology.
    Quote Originally Posted by MAXIMUS View Post
    I think I could run more boost but it's a real hand full right now

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unchained View Post
    Another thought would be to hollow out the inside of the hat and put two normal throttle bodys inside that would have injector bungs, TPS switch mount and IAC already on them. You could make that run excellent and have no challenges. That would retain the Enderle hat look but eliminate the functionality issues. You could link the inner throttle bodies to the Enderle butterflys or just leave the Enderles open.

    The butterflys are so big on one of those that I can foresee throttle resolution problems that may be hard or impossible to overcome.
    It may require some special linkage that opens the butterflys one at a time.
    Just for comparison my engine has two 2 1/2" throttle bodies and that's more than enough although they are after the compressors.
    That's another great idea Unchained. My thought was to create linkage that was 1-1 for the TPS, but progressive between the TPS and butterfly shaft where 1/2 throttle (on pedal and TPS) results in the butterfly opening only 1/4 or 1/5 etc. I know that by using the bird I'll get to max airflow (for this combo) very early on so I'll try adjusting the linkage so the butterfly basically just slams open from this point to full open in the last 1/8 or 1/10th etc. of pedal. Again, there's a DAMN good chance that after all this trial and error I scrap the whole thing and get a couple 4 bore throttle bodies but I want to at least give it a try first. Thanks again!!

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    With a speed density EFI system the MAP sensor is only going to let the injectors put in so much fuel regardless of how big the throttle bores end up at.
    If the engine is flowing as much as it can at 1/3 throttle, opening the throttle farther will not add more fuel like a mechanical system does.
    The fuel volume is going to be determined by engine load as it should be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    No one cares about your buddies old antiquated garden hose technology.
    Quote Originally Posted by MAXIMUS View Post
    I think I could run more boost but it's a real hand full right now

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    Quote Originally Posted by StreetMoto View Post
    I'm constantly reminded how much of a resource this forum really is. I wanted to thank Wizbang for the call yesterday morning. I sent him a PM with a question and included my phone number. He's never met or spoke to me in the past but still didn't mind calling and spending over an hour not only giving me a wealth of feedback and suggestions, but taking the time to explain the logic behind and trail/error behind each of them. He also gave me quite a few names of others to reach out to that are specialists in quite a few areas (EFI, Blowers etc). It's guys like Wizbang that take the time to help newbs like me that make this forum so great.
    Thanks again Wizbang!!!
    Brian is your go to guy for attempting to achieve throttle control with a hat. What he can't answer, he has the names that can. Like I said, you are not the first to attmept this, and there are those that know the ups and downs working it out, and Brian knows most of those working on it.



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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Brian is your go to guy for attempting to achieve throttle control with a hat. What he can't answer, he has the names that can. Like I said, you are not the first to attmept this, and there are those that know the ups and downs working it out, and Brian knows most of those working on it.
    It was amazing how much I learned from him in a single call, he really had a ton of great info to share. And it turns out it was his post that I had read that showed the "1/4 sphere" butterfly mod. Really great guy.

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    Made some progress this past week and finally have some pics to upload. The injector plate is roughed out and I built it so that I can add additional injectors if need be in the future. I placed 4 injectors in the middle and 4 towards the back of the hat since I've heard the enderle hat can load the air towards the back under full throttle. I left a space between the front and back 4 injectors to straddle a support rib on the top of the blower. It has a 3/4" flat surface across the inlet and wasn't sure if this would result in fuel starting to puddle. Prob not, but that was the thought at the time. I got 8 80lb injectors and from the calculators I've found online, these should support 1000 HP (I'm guessing more than this motor will make) with 55lb fuel press, 85% Duty Cycle at 0.60 BSFC. Since I left some room, adding a staged injection of Meth or E85 might be an option if they are needed.

    With the hat, I could only find 4" OD tube to use as a mold for the throttle bores but that actually worked in my favor since the extra material allowed me to create a profile that (slightly) followed the bath of the butterfly as it swings in, allowing for a more progressive transition. My porting tools worked perfectly to shape the epoxy and rough out the shape I'm trying to achieve. I'll fine tune with some sand paper by hand.

    I used a marine grade epoxy that appears to be adhering quite well to the alum where the surface was rough. I was thinking about building up a mold on the back/bottom half of the butterflies to fill with the same epoxy and shaping to create the progressive "1/4 sphere" plugs. I wanted to get some opinions on if that would work? The thought is to rough up the surface where the epoxy is in contact with the butterfly, would that be enough or should I plan on drilling through the butterfly/epoxy and securing with a nut and bolt to keep it from separating?

    I think I have an idea for the GM IAC and Ford TPS, but does anyone have experience/suggestions with setting these up on a hat?

    Thanks again for all the feedback guys, I really appreciate it!
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