Why Fords are queer... or 400M the bastard of the ford family
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Why Fords are queer... or 400M the bastard of the ford family

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    Senior Member wagspe208's Avatar
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    Default Why Fords are queer... or 400M the bastard of the ford family

    400M... I'm building one for a street / mud bronco guy. Not anything real cool. Basic stuff, nice camshaft, etc. Well, only huge dish pistons are available. They had 8:1 compression in the day.
    So, I get the kit, measure dish, head, figure cr... well, 9:1 with piston .010 in the hole.... only problem is ...THE PISTON IS LIKE .08 IN THE HOLE.
    So, I rechecked all the math...yup.. that must be how they came up with 8:1.
    The potentiol was there. 4" stroke. Decent heads for a peeler (no, not great, but ok...fair).
    AND THE DOUCHE BAGS PUT THE PISTON .100 DOWN.
    ROFL
    Fords blow.
    Wags

    I know, cleveland piston and head, bush rod, yada yada yada.
    Last edited by wagspe208; 03-13-2013 at 07:59 PM.

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    Senior Member motor head's Avatar
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    I built one for a guy and put 4 barrel Cleveland heads with small combustion chambers, had the block deck .040 and decent size hydraulic cam. It was pretty damn stout! Smoked the street class at the mud bog. The intake spacers are pricy tho.
    [SIGPIC]

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    Senior Member wagspe208's Avatar
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    Yea... I'm just trying to decide how much to butcher off the deck.
    Wags
    Oh, 4" stroke... should smolder the tires.

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    gn7
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    Wags, keep in mind that Jon Kasse won the Engine Masters 2 years in a row with a 400.

    Wags, measure the CH, not uncommon for the "replacement" piston to be nothing more than a 351C piston with a 1.67 nominal CH. The 400 should be around 1.71 Nominal.

    TMeyers inc sells a TMI/KB hyper flat top 400 piston that comes in at zero deck with a slight deck clean up, and produces 9.3 compression with a stock head.
    295.00 a set.

    LINK: 400 piston



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    Senior Member wagspe208's Avatar
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    Most of the aftermarked stock replacmeent are 1.630 CH... Yikes....
    Budget deal, or I would have done the Meyers pistons. I say budget... well, the spending had to stop somewhere. He bought useful stuff... like ignition, intake, carb, etc. I should be able to get 8.5+ from it.
    It is an old bronco.. top off most of the tiime... lots of drinking and driving.... or riding in my case.
    Funny thing is for every budget piece that comes in, I get 2 cummins type, money no object pieces. I was trying to quit this machining thing... I just keep getting in deeper.
    Wags

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    yep
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    mate what you need is a set of 302 heads

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    302 clevland that is

  10. #8
    www.highflowdynamics.com LakesOnly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wagspe208 View Post
    400M... I'm building one for a street / mud bronco guy. Not anything real cool. Basic stuff, nice camshaft, etc. Well, only huge dish pistons are available. They had 8:1 compression in the day.
    So, I get the kit, measure dish, head, figure cr... well, 9:1 with piston .010 in the hole.... only problem is ...THE PISTON IS LIKE .08 IN THE HOLE.
    So, I rechecked all the math...yup.. that must be how they came up with 8:1.
    The potentiol was there. 4" stroke. Decent heads for a peeler (no, not great, but ok...fair).
    AND THE DOUCHE BAGS PUT THE PISTON .100 DOWN.
    ROFL
    Fords blow.
    Wags

    I know, cleveland piston and head, bush rod, yada yada yada.
    This is not a Ford problem. In fact most engine manufacturer's put the piston below deck some amount. The SBC is typically 0.050" in the hole +/- (nominal). Hell, the badass Chrysler 440's piston is a whopping 0.187" in the hole at TDC and, in fact, is so far down that the 440 engine's flat top pistons don't even have valve reliefs in them.

    Any of this is "correctable" from a performance stand point--Jon Kaase won an Engine Masters contest with a Ford 400M-based engine, and that build was up against 40 engine builds from some of the best engine builders in the country.

    LO
    High Flow Dynamics
    Performance Components for the 429/460 Engine Family


    This post © Copyright 2007-2017 Paul Kane. No copying, linking, printing or otherwise without express written permission.

  11. #9
    Already miss the 310/562 2manymustangs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wagspe208 View Post
    Most of the aftermarked stock replacmeent are 1.630 CH... Yikes....
    Budget deal, or I would have done the Meyers pistons. I say budget... well, the spending had to stop somewhere. He bought useful stuff... like ignition, intake, carb, etc. I should be able to get 8.5+ from it.
    It is an old bronco.. top off most of the tiime... lots of drinking and driving.... or riding in my case.
    Funny thing is for every budget piece that comes in, I get 2 cummins type, money no object pieces. I was trying to quit this machining thing... I just keep getting in deeper.
    Wags
    U need a set of these... Closed chamber Aussie 2V cleveland heads... Wanna buy them? I will go with the aluminum aftermarket version if U want them... This is the head design that won engine masters (keep me honest Paul/Bob) and they are fresh with stainless valves...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Pat Eason, the voice of reason...

  12. #10
    Already miss the 310/562 2manymustangs's Avatar
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    Wags, what is the compression height your dealing with? I dont have the time or energy to look up the stock 400M specs...

    These guys are making some really nice pistons for cleveland headed engines up to and beyond 4" stroke with a variety of pin diameters...

    AND they are in your favorite (and home) state...

    They have their own forging press, i saw it in action... IN house... 100% U.S. made in house...

    My upper end (GSX) boss 347 pistons were $700 with the non standard (chebby) pin bore...

    http://www.dssracing.com/category_s/141.htm
    Last edited by 2manymustangs; 03-27-2013 at 06:28 PM.
    Pat Eason, the voice of reason...

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    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakesOnly View Post
    This is not a Ford problem. In fact most engine manufacturer's put the piston below deck some amount. The SBC is typically 0.050" in the hole +/- (nominal). Hell, the badass Chrysler 440's piston is a whopping 0.187" in the hole at TDC and, in fact, is so far down that the 440 engine's flat top pistons don't even have valve reliefs in them.

    Any of this is "correctable" from a performance stand point--Jon Kaase won an Engine Masters contest with a Ford 400M-based engine, and that build was up against 40 engine builds from some of the best engine builders in the country.

    LO
    You didn't mention the 406 Ford or the 1986 EFI 5.0. Neither of them need valve notches in the pistons.



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  14. #12
    Senior Member wagspe208's Avatar
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    As Randy Travis would say... you guys are "diggin up bones". That engine has been gone for at least 2 weeks.
    Jeez....
    And pistons .100 in the hole is fucking stupid no matter how many mfg's do it. The chevys around here aren't .050 down... of course I don't use stock pistons BECAUSE AFTERMARKET STUFF IS PLENTIFUL.
    Wags

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    Already miss the 310/562 2manymustangs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wagspe208 View Post
    As Randy Travis would say... you guys are "diggin up bones". That engine has been gone for at least 2 weeks.
    Jeez....
    And pistons .100 in the hole is fucking stupid no matter how many mfg's do it. The chevys around here aren't .050 down... of course I don't use stock pistons BECAUSE AFTERMARKET STUFF IS PLENTIFUL.
    Wags
    Just think how many times you can DECK that block without issues after he overheats it while out mudding...

    SO how did it turn out, how did it run???
    Pat Eason, the voice of reason...

  16. #14
    deckboat owner rschap1's Avatar
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    Default mod motor

    I have owned 3 mod fords and as long as they were left stock they ran fairly well. Everyone I knew that did similar to what you state, all blew the bottom ends out of them since they gained rpms. I had one that lasted just shy of 400k miles in a 79 Bronco. 40" Super Swampers and 4.56 gears finally did it in. Rod bearing had enough. I went to a 429 then. But like I said, I saw a TON of those M motors get carbs, intakes, cam, and headers...just to spin a little higher and come apart. I had read that there were some pretty simple things that were needed to help the oiling out and you would have much better luck. Hope yours has better fate.

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