13:1 on E85 ????
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13:1 on E85 ????

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    Senior Member jrider44's Avatar
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    Default 13:1 on E85 ????

    I have a 13:1 452ci bbc I want to run on E85 that is available at the pump. From what I have read on this forum E85 will handle the compression fine(if not please speak up) but what do I need to do to the rest of the fuel system/engine to run E85?? It has a Holley 850 DP and Holley mechanical fuel pump. If there is any more information you need to know about the setup tell me and I will provide it. Thanks in advance for your constructive input
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    steelcomp was here
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrider44 View Post
    I have a 13:1 452ci bbc I want to run on E85 that is available at the pump. From what I have read on this forum E85 will handle the compression fine(if not please speak up) but what do I need to do to the rest of the fuel system/engine to run E85?? It has a Holley 850 DP and Holley mechanical fuel pump. If there is any more information you need to know about the setup tell me and I will provide it. Thanks in advance for your constructive input
    Send the carb to someone who knows how to set it up for E85. It needs to move a lot more fuel, and not just through jetting.
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    gn7
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    Like Steel posted, you need to have the carb setup for E85. I suggest Mark Sullens at Mark Sullen's E85 Carburetor Conversions. Your setup is a pretty standard conversion for him and he has it down pat.

    You say you have a Holley mechanical. Depending on WHICH Holley, you may need to change the pump as well. The entire fuel system needs to flow about 30% more fuel, and that takes a pretty good pump and some good sized fuel lines. Marginal for gas will not get the job done.



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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcomp View Post
    Send the carb to someone who knows how to set it up for E85. It needs to move a lot more fuel, and not just through jetting.
    Thanks Steelcomp for the input I'm kinda a do it yourselfer...are there any how-tos I could read or YouTube vids I could watch to convert it myself?
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    Senior Member jrider44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Like Steel posted, you need to have the carb setup for E85. I suggest Mark Sullens at Mark Sullen's E85 Carburetor Conversions. Your setup is a pretty standard conversion for him and he has it down pat.

    You say you have a Holley mechanical. Depending on WHICH Holley, you may need to change the pump as well. The entire fuel system needs to flow about 30% more fuel, and that takes a pretty good pump and some good sized fuel lines. Marginal for gas will not get the job done.
    Thanks GN7, was typing a response to Steel before I read your post. Kinda sounds like a common theme about sending it out...and sounds like it is something I should consider. If the pump has plenty of volume do I need to convert it in any way for E85? Any suggestions on line sizing? Also does the Holley regulator need any conversion?
    1978 Hawaiian Party Cruiser
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    Mark as well as others can do some DIY kits, but one thing most of us can't do is change the boosters. As much as I hate to say it, that is something best left to a carb guy. If you are going to do that then you might as well have the pro do your whole carb. I have used Heath and Justus Daniels at Race on E85. The have done two carbs for me. There are lots of great guys out there. Heath and Justus have DIY kits, but having them do they whole thing is not much more than doing it yourself and they test it before they send it off.

    Anyway, just figured I would share some of my experiences. Also, the fuel will love your Compression.

    Paul

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    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrider44 View Post
    Thanks GN7, was typing a response to Steel before I read your post. Kinda sounds like a common theme about sending it out...and sounds like it is something I should consider. If the pump has plenty of volume do I need to convert it in any way for E85? Any suggestions on line sizing? Also does the Holley regulator need any conversion?
    If the pump has 3/8 fittings in and out, it might be up to the task. I'd try it and keep a close eye on the fuel pressure for the first couple times out. If it has 1/4" or 5/16 lines in and out, you need another pump.
    If the regulator you have is a Holley and has 3/8th fitting in and out, even if its a 3/8 in and 2 3/8th lines out, you need another regulator.
    MOST other regulators out there will flow enough, but not all. Need to know WHOS regulator you have.
    fc-pilot gave you good advice, and he has been thru this before.
    Mark Sullens and Justus at Race E85 both are very good at converting EXISTING carbs to E85. Its what they do. There are others I prefer for NEW carbs. But if I was converting MY carb, that who I would sent it to. Its not a job for a "do it yourselfer"
    DO NOT FALL FOR THE IDEA OF USING A CONVERSION KIT FROM QUICKFUEL. IT VERY INCOMPLETE, AND YOU WILL NOT BE HAPPY, AND END UP SENDING IT TO ONE OF THE CONVERSION GUYS FOR A FIX, AND STILL END UP SPENDING FULL CONVERSION PRICE.



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    Bob brings up a great point. There are a few forums regarding E85 carbs. Raceone85.com has a message board as does Mark (I think). Anyway, it never fails people come on and ask why their car or boat won't run worth a crap. Sooner or later they ask if they just bought the quickfuel kit, and the answer is almost always yes. If you buy their kit it will have "what ever was closest" put in for bleeds or plugs. It is not "set-up" for your motor, it is just parts. Not to mention we have seen the metering blocks come with the E bleeds all over they place which would really make it hard to get anywhere close. I have even seen them different from the right to left. That is where these carb guys are worth the money. I HATE not doing everything myself, but I HATE ruining an engine even worse. Many of the builders use the quickfuel blocks, but they know how to do the little details to use them to their potential.

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    I talked to Sullens about converting the 850 on our circle boat (roughly 12.5:1 flat tappet 440 CI ). Basically he said he didn't like doing conversions on anything smaller than a 468 and especially with an 850. His point is E85 is a heavier fuel and the combination of small displacement and the relatively small venturi to throttle bore difference in an 850 created problems on fuel pullover at less than full throttle. Moreover, the part throttle response is a problem as well. He was willing to do it after we talked about how the boat would be driven, but he spooked me on the idea. We'll revisit E85 next winter as part of our plannd engine upgrade.. Many consider Sullens one of the experts on the conversion so I'd suggest talking to him.
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    ....... David 519 is 100% correct........

    Quote Originally Posted by fuelinmyveins82 View Post
    .....I think people forget that racing is supposed to fun. Losing shouldn't be discouraging it should motivate you work on your pile to make it faster.....

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    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by David 519 View Post
    I talked to Sullens about converting the 850 on our circle boat (roughly 12.5:1 flat tappet 440 CI ). Basically he said he didn't like doing conversions on anything smaller than a 468 and especially with an 850. His point is E85 is a heavier fuel and the combination of small displacement and the relatively small venturi to throttle bore difference in an 850 created problems on fuel pullover at less than full throttle. Moreover, the part throttle response is a problem as well. He was willing to do it after we talked about how the boat would be driven, but he spooked me on the idea. We'll revisit E85 next winter as part of our plannd engine upgrade.. Many consider Sullens one of the experts on the conversion so I'd suggest talking to him.
    I am sure Mark could make a carb work pretty well on a 440, but it may want a different carb configuration like you said. That becomes a problem if the class has a spec or max size carb. I know that there are a zillion meth 850s out there on small blocks. It can be done. For a lake boat? MMMMmmmm? Part throttle could be an issue, but I think Mark can do it, just with a carb of his choice.

    E85 circle boat???? SS????? Or PS?



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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    .......E85 circle boat???? SS????? Or PS?
    Yea, we don't know where we'll end up but I doubt it will be SS. Talked to Kenner in Needles and the WPS deal sounds like the hot ticket. Our original plan was GPS 95 but not sure how participation will be before the capsule rule takes effect. Apparently I'll have to run a race or 3 before I get an unrestricted license and by the time I've done that, I'll know what class we're gonna run in.
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    ....... David 519 is 100% correct........

    Quote Originally Posted by fuelinmyveins82 View Post
    .....I think people forget that racing is supposed to fun. Losing shouldn't be discouraging it should motivate you work on your pile to make it faster.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    If the pump has 3/8 fittings in and out, it might be up to the task. I'd try it and keep a close eye on the fuel pressure for the first couple times out. If it has 1/4" or 5/16 lines in and out, you need another pump.
    If the regulator you have is a Holley and has 3/8th fitting in and out, even if its a 3/8 in and 2 3/8th lines out, you need another regulator.
    MOST other regulators out there will flow enough, but not all. Need to know WHOS regulator you have.
    fc-pilot gave you good advice, and he has been thru this before.
    Mark Sullens and Justus at Race E85 both are very good at converting EXISTING carbs to E85. Its what they do. There are others I prefer for NEW carbs. But if I was converting MY carb, that who I would sent it to. Its not a job for a "do it yourselfer"
    DO NOT FALL FOR THE IDEA OF USING A CONVERSION KIT FROM QUICKFUEL. IT VERY INCOMPLETE, AND YOU WILL NOT BE HAPPY, AND END UP SENDING IT TO ONE OF THE CONVERSION GUYS FOR A FIX, AND STILL END UP SPENDING FULL CONVERSION PRICE.
    I believe the Holley fuel pump has 1/2 NPT inlet and outlets, so does the Holley regulator(34R-11577B). I attached pictures of them because I am not positive on fuel pump model(tag on pump says HP 19 312F). Would 8AN lines be enough? I will take the advice of all of you and have Sullens or Justus do the carb. Are the internals of the pump and regulator E85 compatible?
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    Last edited by jrider44; 03-18-2013 at 06:47 PM. Reason: Added fuel pump tag numbers
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    I am sure Mark could make a carb work pretty well on a 440, but it may want a different carb configuration like you said. That becomes a problem if the class has a spec or max size carb. I know that there are a zillion meth 850s out there on small blocks. It can be done. For a lake boat? MMMMmmmm? Part throttle could be an issue, but I think Mark can do it, just with a carb of his choice.

    E85 circle boat???? SS????? Or PS?
    Mine is a lake boat(26' Hawaiian Party Cruiser jet) and this 13:1 452 is only engine I have available this year so I would like to make it work on E85 rather than race gas. Think 13:1 is too much for 93 and octane booster??
    1978 Hawaiian Party Cruiser
    Stevens V-drive(sold to bbollig55)
    Spico V-drive

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrider44 View Post
    Mine is a lake boat(26' Hawaiian Party Cruiser jet) and this 13:1 452 is only engine I have available this year so I would like to make it work on E85 rather than race gas. Think 13:1 is too much for 93 and octane booster??
    13 to one is too much for 93 even with booster.
    The regulator and pump will easily keep up with a single 4 barrel on E85.
    I'd contact Mark Sullens or Justus at RaceOnE85 and see what they say about converting your carb for that combo.
    They are going to ask about the camshaft, and you may not have that info. But I am sure they can get you fairly close using something like the stock L88/89 cam as a base.



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