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new bbc build

  1. #1
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    Default new bbc build

    I am going to start a new engine build for my 26 RPM Redline cat. It currently has a 598 chevy tall deck with a new Whipple 4.5l SC. the ring life has never been as long as I would like. usually after about 30-40 hrs, the leakdown drops from 5% down to 20% or more and the power is dropping somewhat. with the new build I am planning on a shorter stroke, maybe 4.250 or 4.375 in an effort to get some longer ring life and less piston scuffing on the thrust side. I may go to the trouble of all pistons oilers to the block if this will help. with only about 555", I will have to add some boost to equal the power of the 598. it might even be a little better since I should be able to turn it a little tighter with the shorter stroke and going to .903 lifters, either solid or hydraulic. since the merc 1075 has a 40 rebuild time, it may be difficult to get to my desired 100 hrs even with the short stroke. what do any of you think of this combo? the old bowtie 598 is 10 yrs old and has been built 8 times almost always with new pistons and a hone or bore. that is why it is at 4.600. it started at 4.500.

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  3. #2
    steelcomp was here
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    How much power are you making and how much rpm?
    First thing that comes to mind is cylinder finish and rings. Are you diamond honing with tq plates? What rings are you using?
    A Dart block is hands down the best iron block out there. I'd start there, Then contact Matt Hartford at Total Seal and get his input on rings and bore finish.
    What oil are you using?
    Last edited by scott foxwell; 05-16-2013 at 05:21 AM.
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcomp View Post
    How much power are you making and how much rpm?
    First thing that comes to mind is cylinder finish and rings. Are you diamond honing with tq plates? What rings are you using?
    A Dart block is hands down the best iron block out there. I'd start there, Then contact Matt Hartford at Total Seal and get his input on rings and bore finish.
    What oil are you using?
    I just re-ringed the 598 and used TS gapless top and napier 2nd with std tension oi rings. TS gave me their advice. The block was last honed by Mark at Precision Marine. For the re-ring, I just used my Brush Hone to give the bores a roughened surface to help with the ring seating. since I am starting from scratch with a new block on the 557-565, all options are open. I live near LA and have had some difficulty finding good machine shops that know about honing and use proper torque plates. any recommendations are welcome, but the machining is a couple of months away. I hope that the 598 will hold up for the rest of the boating season. right now, I am just trying to decide on the configuration. ideas and advice are welcome. I used Gibbs break-in 30 wt and changed oil after 4hrs with Mobil One 10-30wt and Wix racing 1 qt filters. For the new build, I am thinking: Dart tall deck 4.560 bore x 4.25 stroke, callies/manley 4340 4.25 crank, manley/oliver I beam 6.535 rods, JE custom dished pistons coated, possible piston oilers machined in block (if it adds longevity), AFR 335 V2 heads (the 598 has 12 yr old 357's), T&D stud rockers, custom Marine Kinetics hyd/solid roller. other bolt-ons from the 598 will include holley hp efi, cmi headers, msd, thermostat oil cooler and of course the almost new Whipple 4.5L (3rd one built for marine) with MOAC intercooler.

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    Senior Member MACHINEHEAD1's Avatar
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    I use a lot of TS rings. It is possible the hone is too steep and not holding oil. Although TS rings are very forgiving in regaurd to leakdown. This is unusual unless you have reached their threashold with your combustion preasures. Secondly a steep hone (north of 47 degrees) will tend to make the rings "screw" as they travel up and down the cylinder. This makes the ring lands wear prematurely, as the rings rotate in the land. Ring side clearence is then increased, causing the TS set to not be as effective as they once were. A shallower angle will hold more oil and not have the tendancy to screw the rings. They will run cooler and not remove as much piston material. The down side is possible oil consumption and a traditional ring set might not seal as soon as expected. A real balancing act. TS might try to talk you out of it, but I might recomend a AP/TS traditional ring set with a 1/16x1/16x3/16 or heftier config. You may also be a candidate for a ano treatment to the pistons lands. I dont like this treatment because of the heat transfer issues, but you may like this option. Bullet proof lands. Normally I do the skirts (scuffing issue), leave the lands alone and ceramic the crowns. Diamond can do this. Still need rpm as Steel has requested. You have a great blower/compensator. Shortest stroke (4.25) and 4.625 Bore with the TallDart, 571 I think. If it stays below 4400ft/min piston speed most of its life, the 6.535 rod should be OK for a stable piston, 1.5" pin height or so.

  7. #5
    steelcomp was here
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    Quote Originally Posted by MACHINEHEAD1 View Post
    I use a lot of TS rings. It is possible the hone is too steep and not holding oil. Although TS rings are very forgiving in regaurd to leakdown. This is unusual unless you have reached their threashold with your combustion preasures. Secondly a steep hone (north of 47 degrees) will tend to make the rings "screw" as they travel up and down the cylinder. This makes the ring lands wear prematurely, as the rings rotate in the land. Ring side clearence is then increased, causing the TS set to not be as effective as they once were. A shallower angle will hold more oil and not have the tendancy to screw the rings. They will run cooler and not remove as much piston material. The down side is possible oil consumption and a traditional ring set might not seal as soon as expected. A real balancing act. TS might try to talk you out of it, but I might recomend a AP/TS traditional ring set with a 1/16x1/16x3/16 or heftier config. You may also be a candidate for a ano treatment to the pistons lands. I dont like this treatment because of the heat transfer issues, but you may like this option. Bullet proof lands. Normally I do the skirts (scuffing issue), leave the lands alone and ceramic the crowns. Diamond can do this. Still need rpm as Steel has requested. You have a great blower/compensator. Shortest stroke (4.25) and 4.625 Bore with the TallDart, 571 I think. If it stays below 4400ft/min piston speed most of its life, the 6.535 rod should be OK for a stable piston, 1.5" pin height or so.
    Just a note:
    Rings are supposed to rotate. Proper hone angle is part of making sure the rings rotate at the proper rate.
    I also use high tension oil rings on blower engines. Too much oil on the cyl wall will float the top ring and cause a seal issue as well.
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.

  8. #6
    steelcomp was here
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    Quote Originally Posted by conmax View Post
    I just re-ringed the 598 and used TS gapless top and napier 2nd with std tension oi rings. TS gave me their advice. The block was last honed by Mark at Precision Marine. For the re-ring, I just used my Brush Hone to give the bores a roughened surface to help with the ring seating. since I am starting from scratch with a new block on the 557-565, all options are open. I live near LA and have had some difficulty finding good machine shops that know about honing and use proper torque plates. any recommendations are welcome, but the machining is a couple of months away. I hope that the 598 will hold up for the rest of the boating season. right now, I am just trying to decide on the configuration. ideas and advice are welcome. I used Gibbs break-in 30 wt and changed oil after 4hrs with Mobil One 10-30wt and Wix racing 1 qt filters. For the new build, I am thinking: Dart tall deck 4.560 bore x 4.25 stroke, callies/manley 4340 4.25 crank, manley/oliver I beam 6.535 rods, JE custom dished pistons coated, possible piston oilers machined in block (if it adds longevity), AFR 335 V2 heads (the 598 has 12 yr old 357's), T&D stud rockers, custom Marine Kinetics hyd/solid roller. other bolt-ons from the 598 will include holley hp efi, cmi headers, msd, thermostat oil cooler and of course the almost new Whipple 4.5L (3rd one built for marine) with MOAC intercooler.
    On your new combination, I like the 555 tall deck idea. Callies is a good choice. I'm a Lunati dealer so I tend to run their Pro Series stuff. I really don't think you need a custom piston. JE's catalogue tall deck dished pistons are fine for most blower apps, especially with a .200 wall pin upgrade. Piston oilers are an automatic upgrade in my offshore engines.
    For your machinework, if you're willing to drive a few hours I recommend Lesco Machine in San Luis Obispo. They've done all my machinework for the last 8 years and you won't find a more meticulous, detatail oriented, or more knowledgable machine shop around. The owner stays on top of all the latest machining procedures and technnology and works closely with manufacturers. Their blockwork is all CNC and they use a Rottler hone with all diamond tooling for bore finishing.
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.

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    thanks for the responses so far. steel, did Lesco machine the oilers for you? if not, do they know how? this is not something I would want to experiment with even though the machinist may be very good. do you feel that the oilers add to longevity?

  10. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by conmax View Post
    thanks for the responses so far. steel, did Lesco machine the oilers for you? if not, do they know how? this is not something I would want to experiment with even though the machinist may be very good. do you feel that the oilers add to longevity?
    The piston oilers are something I install. You can buy the installation kit from Bo Laws but it does take some experience to install. I don't think Lesco has the kit, but maybe you can offer to buy it for them and trade on the labor or something. I know they can do the installation with no problem.
    There also may be a shop closer to you that's completely capable, I just know of Lesco from my experience. If you do call, ask for Stephan and tell him I referred you.
    As far as adding to longevity, the biggest reason I like them is to help reduce detonation by keeping the piston crown cooler. Extra oiling on the pin and and a little extra on the cyl wall doesn't hurt as long as the rings are doing their job.
    Last edited by scott foxwell; 05-17-2013 at 07:11 AM.
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.

  11. #9
    Senior Member MACHINEHEAD1's Avatar
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    Steel,the proper RATE, check. What is high tension, for a 4.56 bore, 16lbs traction pull? 21? Curious of Steels definition of high tension. 15-18 seems about right for me with a 3/16" ring. Still dont know your rpm or HP,OP. Squirters are great, better have your rings figured out. I had a guy at JE tell me "those are shelf pistons and are not made for what you did too them" . It was a 588 with a 14-71. Began to get a little noisy and a tear down revealed some piston related issues. Design a meaty piston with help from your favorite manuf. Get those details Steel has been asking for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MACHINEHEAD1 View Post
    Steel,the proper RATE, check. What is high tension, for a 4.56 bore, 16lbs traction pull? 21? Curious of Steels definition of high tension. 15-18 seems about right for me with a 3/16" ring. Still dont know your rpm or HP,OP. Squirters are great, better have your rings figured out. I had a guy at JE tell me "those are shelf pistons and are not made for what you did too them" . It was a 588 with a 14-71. Began to get a little noisy and a tear down revealed some piston related issues. Design a meaty piston with help from your favorite manuf. Get those details Steel has been asking for.
    The oil rings were recommended by TS for both my last blower builds. I don't know what they pull, they just recommended high tension oil rings so I used them.
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.

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    I used the M9150-5 ring set on the 598 freshen. this is the first time I have tried a gapless top ring and napier 2nd. I have used their gapless 2nd rings in the past with mixed results. also used std tension oil rings. too soon to tell about reliability; only 4 hrs on engine.

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    Looks like they are calling 23lbs STD tension for that (M9150-5) 4.6" bore set. Seems to be nothing higher.

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    Getting back to it. Try Russ at Bischop & Buell in west covina or Evans speed in El Monte. The best down there, easy. I have even sent stuff to them from Texas over the years. Used them exclusively when I was in Cucamonga.

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