460 Ford with Hydraulic Lifter that are noisy and leak down.
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460 Ford with Hydraulic Lifter that are noisy and leak down.

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    Default 460 Ford with Hydraulic Lifter that are noisy and leak down.

    I just installed a freshly rebuilt 460 BBF TT for my 74 Hallet. The motor idles well, seems to run fine, but the lifters have always sounded like they are solids when they are hydraulic. In addition, they bleed down with in several minuets after shutdown. The cam lifter kit is and Isky matching system Cam 311-TB Hyd. cam lift in .293 ex. 272 Valve lift in. .515 ex .475 dur in. 274 ex. 260 Lobe center 114 The lifters are Isky 423HY. I have been looking for help from Ron at Isky and he has been great trying to help get this problem solved. Thus far we have changed the oil to Brad Penn 50wt, changed out the lifters a second time, have adjusted them six ways from Sunday, and have been checking the oil filter for any signs the cam could be coming apart. Anybody have any ideas??
    Thanks much,

    Jack

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    steelcomp was here
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    Get away from the flat tappet stuff would be my advice. How much spring pressure are you running? I wouldn't be running 50wt with hyd lifters.
    Last edited by scott foxwell; 06-21-2013 at 11:00 AM.
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    If we have to pull the motor down, a roller is a likely consideration. Can you explain why the flat tappet could be the problem. In addition, what is the issue with the 50wt. Seems everybody here on the LEFT coast is running that weight or heavier. Also, the spring pressure is 300 Open.

    Jack

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    Quote Originally Posted by ACESPACK View Post
    If we have to pull the motor down, a roller is a likely consideration. Can you explain why the flat tappet could be the problem. In addition, what is the issue with the 50wt. Seems everybody here on the LEFT coast is running that weight or heavier. Also, the spring pressure is 300 Open.

    Jack
    The entire industry has moved away form the flat tappet stuff. Lifters are only available from a few sources, especially the .874 dia. Ford lifter, and the quality control has gone away. One of the big problems externally is the radius on the face of a flat tappet lifter which is critical for lifter rotation but it also has to match the cam lobe. Most these days just don't, and all the break in precaution and all the trick oil in to world won't make any difference. As far as the internals, that's simply a manufacturing and tolerance issue that effects the bleed rate of the lifter. The worse the tolerances, the higher the bleed rate. The higher the bleed rate, the easier the lifter will collapse and the less spring pressure it will tolerate. My guess is the lifters you're using have a very high bleed rate from what you're describing. Also, with the 50wt, there is a valve inside the lifter that needs to open and close at a very rapid rate and with oil that's too heavy, the valve can't operate like it's supposed to. I also know that EVERYBODY isn't running oil that heavy. We sell a lot of Morel hyd roller lifters and they recommend nothing heavier than 10-40 max. 300 open doesn't seem excessive. I have hyd rollers running over 500 open. I know you're talking about flat tappet lifters but the internals work the same. The Morels are held to a 2-3% bleed rate where the lifters you have I'm guessing are in the 12-15% range.
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    Gotcha. Te be clear, what I said was it seems everybody out here building boats are running 50wt or heavier. Guys like Joe Bogaosian of Joe Bogaosian Enterprises, and other guys if his stature. Anyhow, what you said makes since. Is there any other lifter option that could work better, or in your opinion is the cam replacement the only answer? Keep in mind this is not a raced boat but a well restored old ski race hull we put back to how it was back in the day. It will be used mostly for skiing and a once in a while hard run. Does the noise and leak down cause any damage or loss of performance? I certainly can see how it could, but others think it is highly unlikely. Any thoughts on that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ACESPACK View Post
    Gotcha. Te be clear, what I said was it seems everybody out here building boats are running 50wt or heavier. Guys like Joe Bogaosian of Joe Bogaosian Enterprises, and other guys if his stature. Anyhow, what you said makes since. Is there any other lifter option that could work better, or in your opinion is the cam replacement the only answer? Keep in mind this is not a raced boat but a well restored old ski race hull we put back to how it was back in the day. It will be used mostly for skiing and a once in a while hard run. Does the noise and leak down cause any damage or loss of performance? I certainly can see how it could, but others think it is highly unlikely. Any thoughts on that?
    What's the valve train like on your engine? What heads? 260/274 is fairly healthy. Am I correct in that this is a turbo deal? I think flat tappet lifter options are a roll of the dice at best. Personally, I'd cut my losses and go HR and be done with it. If things are noisy it's usually not a good sign. If the lifters are bleeding down then you may not be getting the full potential of your cam as it is so I;d say the potential for damage and loss of performance is there.
    If you're stuck on a flat tappet hydraulic, you might contact George Streagle @ Clay Smith Cams in CA. He was a fan of the 385 series Ford and might have some stuff still sitting around.
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    Cast iron Dove Heads. intakes mild ported exhaust heavily ported. 96cc. .40 Cometic MKS gaskets, TRW 22cc Dish .60 pistons, stock crank, 4.5 bore, 8.671 push rods, 1.7 Comp Roller Rockers, CJ C9AE Connecting Rods with ARP Bolts. Yes this is a turbo application. Total compression approximately 8.5 to 1. Planning to run 10 to 12 pounds. Max Max Max; will probably keep it around 7lbs so it will last a long time. However, at this point who knows how long it will last. I don't have any love for the flat tappet. Given that this was a turbo build the builder just felt it was plenty of cam for the need. Again, if it is determined I have to pull the motor out; I will look to a roller set up for sure. Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcomp View Post
    What's the valve train like on your engine? What heads? 260/274 is fairly healthy. Am I correct in that this is a turbo deal? I think flat tappet lifter options are a roll of the dice at best. Personally, I'd cut my losses and go HR and be done with it. If things are noisy it's usually not a good sign. If the lifters are bleeding down then you may not be getting the full potential of your cam as it is so I;d say the potential for damage and loss of performance is there.
    If you're stuck on a flat tappet hydraulic, you might contact George Streagle @ Clay Smith Cams in CA. He was a fan of the 385 series Ford and might have some stuff still sitting around.
    hey Scott, Its STRIEGEL not splitting hairs here but seeing how your "Clay Smith EAST"
    You really need to get it right ok! Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by ACESPACK View Post
    If we have to pull the motor down, a roller is a likely consideration. Can you explain why the flat tappet could be the problem. In addition, what is the issue with the 50wt. Seems everybody here on the LEFT coast is running that weight or heavier. Also, the spring pressure is 300 Open.

    Jack
    hello Jack, seeing how you are running Isky, I would highly advise you to do and run what oil Ron says to run, I run 60 wt vr1 or 50 wt vr1 ...... Why because my Cam grInder " George Striegel" told me to do so over 25 yrs ago. yes, I run FT cam also, also have a new TT with yet another FT,
    so basically I like to roll the dice!!!lol never had a FT problem ever... But I run solid Flat tappets only.
    Ron is a good guy, I doubt he would steer ya wrong! Jmo
    Scott is right the FT stuff is in decline, If ya got the money go roller, to me its a waste to spend that money on a baby roller for your deal. You won't ever see the performance difference or feel it!
    except your wallet will be lighter! JMO

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    Quote Originally Posted by PS&B1 View Post
    hey Scott, Its STRIEGEL not splitting hairs here but seeing how your "Clay Smith EAST"
    You really need to get it right ok! Lol
    Hey, at least I got the Clay Smith part right...

    Thanks Ron.





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    I think the point here is that some HYDRUALIC lifters, specially newer generation, are not compatible with heavy oils. Soild FT is a different story. But then, you knew that.



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    Quote Originally Posted by PS&B1 View Post
    If ya got the money go roller, to me its a waste to spend that money on a baby roller for your deal. You won't ever see the performance difference or feel it!
    except your wallet will be lighter! JMO
    Maybe so, but your engine will sure be a lot happier and he wouldn't be on his second set of lifters, out all the hassle and cost, and still having problems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    I think the point here is that some HYDRUALIC lifters, specially newer generation, are not compatible with heavy oils. Soild FT is a different story. But then, you knew that.
    ACTUALLY no I didn't but......... RON does, and I look at it like this. IF YOU ground me a cam or built me an engine..... it would be stupid not to run what YOU said to run period.
    I wouldn't listen to any advise on the net from anybody!
    I respect alot of people on here, Including YOU ! But unless you built the engine or ground the cam in my engine...... Your advise means NOTHING! Unless of course you are gonna replace it when the advise is wrong!
    believe me when I tell you, OIL is not the flat tappet problems, It won't save Bad lifters or cams that don't have enough taper NO oil will help you!
    But wrong oil can Kill them all! But you already knew that! Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcomp View Post
    Maybe so, but your engine will sure be a lot happier and he wouldn't be on his second set of lifters, out all the hassle and cost, and still having problems.
    Scott you dam well know EVERTHING has issues! And risks, and a roller lifter that comes apart is a nightmare MOST of the time, I believe he has other issues here, and my engine has had a good life and has been quite the happy camper for many years.
    I properly setup flat tappet deal is and should be happy, I really doubt there is a happy meter lol and as YOU know there is NO money in flat tappets at least not good ones. So why are flat tappets in decline??? MORE profit in ROLLERS?
    If you could get the same margin in a FT as a roller what would YOU sell? The cam isn't the issue the roller lifters are and you know it.
    A machine can grind a roller cam! It takes a human to do a FT! at least to do it right!

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