[Question] Cam gear grinding block
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Cam gear grinding block

  1. #1
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    Default Cam gear grinding block

    Recently replaced all bearings and found this. I set the Magnaflow pump as per stated by several here on PB. This prevents cam walk, I'm now more concerned about distributor pulling it rearward. Secondly, with the large washer in place how did it eat the face?? It is not a deep cut and shows up on the cam gear as well. Looking close at the large washer, it has a couple specs on it. Could this have gotten hot and scrubbed hard enough from heating and cooling that the welded on particles did its damage? Engine only has 10-12 hours on it. Has anyone placed a Torrington type bearing at the rear in the cam plug.( I know, you're supposed to buy a new cam gear with Torrington). If someone can tell me if
    the rear of the cam idea is Verboten
    I have cut an oil groove in the cam bearing, should show up in pic, Hope Pic shows.
    Larry
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  3. #2
    Led
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    the torrington bearing was probably installed backwards, from experience

    edit: I now see that you used only a washer, the torrington bearing should be installed in the front (behind timing gear) where you have your large washer, never used a washer always a bearing.
    Last edited by Led; 07-03-2013 at 07:44 AM.

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    Bostick Racing Engines six-oh-nine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadBehavior View Post
    Recently replaced all bearings and found this. I set the Magnaflow pump as per stated by several here on PB. This prevents cam walk, I'm now more concerned about distributor pulling it rearward. Secondly, with the large washer in place how did it eat the face?? It is not a deep cut and shows up on the cam gear as well. Looking close at the large washer, it has a couple specs on it. Could this have gotten hot and scrubbed hard enough from heating and cooling that the welded on particles did its damage? Engine only has 10-12 hours on it. Has anyone placed a Torrington type bearing at the rear in the cam plug.( I know, you're supposed to buy a new cam gear with Torrington). If someone can tell me if
    the rear of the cam idea is Verboten
    I have cut an oil groove in the cam bearing, should show up in pic, Hope Pic shows.
    Larry
    The cam gear will prevent the cam from walking backwards... I'd say that seeing that neither the block, nor the cam gear was cut for your washer or a Torrington bearing... so installing that washer to set your clearance on a front drive pump wasn't a good idea, nor is it the correct way to set the clearance... that is typically done with shims on your drive on the front of the cam gear. Gear sets come cut or you have to cut ones that do not already come that way for a thrust washer/Torrington setup... otherwise you'll have a misalignment issue. I'm surprised you didn't have a pretty good cam/crank gear misalignment issue... the chain should have been binding up enough to be noticeable when turning the engine over by hand.
    Last edited by six-oh-nine; 07-03-2013 at 08:20 AM.
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    gn7
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    six oh nine pretty much said it all.
    Is this a flat tappet of a roller?
    No you cannot put a torrington behind the camshaft. The force that did that to the block, if applied to the rear plug, would simply push it out.
    The oil pump had nothing to do with what happened.



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    Default Questions beget more questions

    Thanks Guys for the response.
    Led: This timing chain setup was supplied the engine builder. Washer included, not my idea. That’s the
    reason for these questions, I’m learning!

    Six-oh-nine
    : “so installing that washer to set your clearance on a front drive pump wasn't a good idea, nor is it the correct way to set the clearance” Understood most of what you stated. Washer was part of package, my ignorance!

    GN7
    : Mild roller, cam plug had signs of cam rearward movement without moving the plug, thought that would be a good safeguard, now not a good idea. You referred to the oil pump? I was lead to believe the rearward cam movement was the helical gearing of the Dizzy, am I wrong? Correct me please.

    To clean up the block face, could I use the provided bolt holes on the face with a very thin washer to re-establish a smooth surface? Do not want make a 54 mile trip to same engine builder just to face off front.
    I need a good tutorial this time. Is a capsulated Torrington safer to use than open rollers? Needles in the pan?
    Sorry for the length,
    Larry

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    Senior Member wagspe208's Avatar
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    Do the 2 front oil galley plugs have the little holes drilled in them?(like they did from the factory)? Nope is the answer.
    Wags

    I see this all the time when those little insignificant holes aren't there. Can't say I have seen it when they are. Now, with that being said.... no one knows if it was a set, condition of the front of the block from the get go, properly set up, etc.

  9. #7
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    How much thrust clearance did the cam have when you installed the front cove and water pump together? When you measured, did you have the actual gasket you were going to run, and did you have enough bolts in the cover and were they tightened down well enough to simulate the running engine? Reason I ask is if your initial clearance was on the tight side (say .004-.005) and you didn't have the same gasket or everything tight, you can use up that .005" real fast in the final assembly. I'd also ask how you actually measured your cam thrust, or was this calculated? If there was less than a couple thou on final assembly then there was no way that thrust surface was going to survive without a torrington.
    It takes patience to set cam thrust properly and my guess this was the cause of the damage. Once that surface starts deteriorating -even with a hardened washer- it's not going to last long.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wagspe208 View Post
    Do the 2 front oil galley plugs have the little holes drilled in them?(like they did from the factory)? Nope is the answer.
    Wags

    I see this all the time when those little insignificant holes aren't there. Can't say I have seen it when they are. Now, with that being said.... no one knows if it was a set, condition of the front of the block from the get go, properly set up, etc.
    You probably know this, but those plugs had holes in them to let air escape when GM was having issues with hyd. lifters. They they aren't there to oil the timing gear, and in fact, I'd bet very little of the oil coming from them gets behind that gear. Most of that oil comes from the front cam bearing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadBehavior View Post
    Thanks Guys for the response.
    Led: This timing chain setup was supplied the engine builder. Washer included, not my idea. That’s the
    reason for these questions, I’m learning!

    Six-oh-nine
    : “so installing that washer to set your clearance on a front drive pump wasn't a good idea, nor is it the correct way to set the clearance” Understood most of what you stated. Washer was part of package, my ignorance!

    GN7
    : Mild roller, cam plug had signs of cam rearward movement without moving the plug, thought that would be a good safeguard, now not a good idea. You referred to the oil pump? I was lead to believe the rearward cam movement was the helical gearing of the Dizzy, am I wrong? Correct me please.

    To clean up the block face, could I use the provided bolt holes on the face with a very thin washer to re-establish a smooth surface? Do not want make a 54 mile trip to same engine builder just to face off front.
    I need a good tutorial this time. Is a capsulated Torrington safer to use than open rollers? Needles in the pan?
    Sorry for the length,
    Larry
    This depends on how much material is missing from the face of the cam tunnel. Best thing to do at this point is put the crank in, install the lower cam gear, then slide the cam in with a stock upper cam gear. Check the alignment. The amount of offset is how much material you've lost.
    One thing I'm curious about. Was the timing gear machined for the washer, or was this just something put behind the timing gear with no prep?
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    Default Cam gear

    Hey Steelcomp, Thanks for responding. I used the old fashioned clay trick, measured with vernier caliper, with gasket, got .005 I think you nailed my faulting, that’s why I’m starting over. Using a Magnaflow pump.

    One thing I'm curious about. Was the timing gear machined for the washer, or was this just something put behind the timing gear with no prep?”
    Not an excuse,(Rookie) but, builder handed it to me and said it goes like this, washer then sprocket. Be gone for 2 weeks working, will take a measure of the cam face loss when I return. When adding the bearing, is it buried flush with the gear or proud a bit??
    Definitely appreciate your input along with the others. Makes this forum GREAT!
    Larry

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    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcomp View Post
    One thing I'm curious about. Was the timing gear machined for the washer, or was this just something put behind the timing gear with no prep?
    No, It couldn't have been machined for the washer. If it was there would be a shoulder in the center of the gear to center the washer. If it been done what I call the old "Isky" method" the front cam bearing would extend out passed the face of the block to center the washer, and the geat would be cut back the correct amount to allow for the washer.

    You're right. The holes in the front gallery plugs do nothing to oil the back of the gear. Might get a little extra on the chain, but thats not why they are there. Its strictly to allow air to escape on fire up. The factory found that morning fire up the front of the gallery trapped air and the front HYDRAULIC lifters would clatter for a few seconds.

    I am not a fan of the grooved front bearing to oil the back of the gear either. Specially with a chain as opposed to a gear drive. The chain ADDS toward force to the front cam bearing, and the groove just removes surface area like full grooved mains. A gear drive trys to force the crank and cam apart, and will actually wear the top of the front bearing. I perfer to drill a .030 hole thru the cam thrust face of the block to intersect with the cam bearing feed gallery. Same idea, just maybe 1/4 straight down from where the groove is cut in the bearing. I ONLY do that if I am using a bronze thrust washer in place of a torrington. With a torrington I don't do anything. It gets plenty of oil, and oil from the hole can't get to the bearing anyway.

    Depending on how deep that groove is in the block and how much it moves the cam back will deptermine the fix. If its not too deep to throw off the alignment an undue amount you can just pick up a chain set with a bronze or torrington thrust. My guess from the number of hours on the engine, and the looks of the picture, this is probably the case.


    BUT!! If it is too deep and requires some "adjustment" to a normal T set, you could get a .150 bronze thrust or torrington, and machine the back you your gear, leaving a shoulder to hold and center the thrust washer. The amount you would remove would the .150 of the washer, minus the depth of the groove cut in the block.
    What EVER you do, do not stick that gear back on without a thrust. Just because the one you have was allowed for , doesn't mean you don't need one. Also, I bet that washer measures about .030. Its not a thrust washer, it one part of a 3 part open torrington bearing.
    Your machinist should be banged on the side of the head!

    BTW, that super ultra fine ground metal is in your oil pan. Just something to think about!



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    Last edited by gn7; 07-03-2013 at 02:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcomp View Post
    You probably know this, but those plugs had holes in them to let air escape when GM was having issues with hyd. lifters. They they aren't there to oil the timing gear, and in fact, I'd bet very little of the oil coming from them gets behind that gear. Most of that oil comes from the front cam bearing.
    Yes... I am hip to what you are saying. I get it. I just know many of the fucked up pieces I have seen have the factory plugs out, and plugs in. Now, with that being said.... I have no idea who/ what/ setup of whomever did the half assed work before. I have seen maybe.... I don't know... a dozen or so over the years. Not many. So, this is a case where A+B=C but A+B does not have to =C. Make sense?
    Wags

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    Sure would like to see the distributor gear on that deal!!!

  16. #14
    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ol guy View Post
    Sure would like to see the distributor gear on that deal!!!
    I doubt its hurt. The pump sure as hell had nothing to do with that at all. And I doubt the cam moved back far enough to cause much miss alignment.
    However, he should double check the dizzy gear.

    I would like to know how the cam, as he claims, hit the rear plug if it had that washer behind the T gear??



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