E85 vs 93 and 2 4bbl vs FI on a TR
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E85 vs 93 and 2 4bbl vs FI on a TR

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    Just Me snoc653's Avatar
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    Default E85 vs 93 and 2 4bbl vs FI on a TR

    Here is my delema. I just found a near by source for bulk E85, not to mention here in Iowa we can usually find it somewhere close by at the pump. Do I build the motor for E85 or stick with pump gas? And when it comes to fuel delivery do I go the tried and true carberators or FI? If I go FI I've been told to look for something like the old 8 hole Crower for low rpm driveability. The motor I'm building is a Dodge 440 (going to become a 512), steal ported 84 cc heads, bottom end will be a 512 stroker kit my builder recomended with steal crank and forged pistons). CR is open to what ever I want it to be (thinking no more than 11.5:1 for pump gas). I have a Wieand TR for it and will be running a vertex mag. This motor will most likely go in my jet. Cam shaft hasn't been decided yet, but will probably trust the builder to recomend something as it's not my fortey. Any thoughts or suggestions?

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    just a ski boat with bark Carnivalride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoc653 View Post
    Here is my delema. I just found a near by source for bulk E85, not to mention here in Iowa we can usually find it somewhere close by at the pump. Do I build the motor for E85 or stick with pump gas? And when it comes to fuel delivery do I go the tried and true carberators or FI?
    I've looked into this for my deal back when I originally built it and here's a few things to think about.

    * Because of the octane and cooling effect of E85 you can run more compression than pump gas. In fact boats with iron heads and 12.5:1 compression will run without timing being taken out.

    * You will burn more E85 than gasoline, roughly 30% more

    * It seems to work fine in pressurized injection systems but I have heard of corrosion in carbureted applications especially at the fuel level in the float bowls.

    * Quick flow does make metering blocks to convert existing carbs, you will probably need to change from .110 viton needle and seats to .130 in stainless (E85 softens viton)

    * There's a good chance air bleeds may need to be changed too. Without a wideband o2 sensor or a dyno converting carbs my be a little tricky.

    * some reading info http://members.tccoa.com/392bird/carbtech.htm
    http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/f...ead.php?t=4770

    For what it's worth, I haven't made the switch on mine yet.......

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    I'm baaaaack... hkunz's Avatar
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    There are sources in the midwest for alky carbs, don't know if they are cheap.

    http://www.carcraft.com/search/artic...ext=e85%20carb
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    mo balls than $cents$ IMPATIENT 1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carnivalride View Post
    I've looked into this for my deal back when I originally built it and here's a few things to think about.

    * Because of the octane and cooling effect of E85 you can run more compression than pump gas. In fact boats with iron heads and 12.5:1 compression will run without timing being taken out.

    * You will burn more E85 than gasoline, roughly 30% more

    * It seems to work fine in pressurized injection systems but I have heard of corrosion in carbureted applications especially at the fuel level in the float bowls.

    * Quick flow does make metering blocks to convert existing carbs, you will probably need to change from .110 viton needle and seats to .130 in stainless (E85 softens viton)

    * There's a good chance air bleeds may need to be changed too. Without a wideband o2 sensor or a dyno converting carbs my be a little tricky.

    * some reading info http://members.tccoa.com/392bird/carbtech.htm
    http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/f...ead.php?t=4770

    For what it's worth, I haven't made the switch on mine yet.......
    i'd run the shiat if i could get it, built the motor and fuel system around being able to run the stuff but my supply fell thru he's having to switch his production from corn to sugar beets now.

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    Have played with it in the boat over here. Gained 200 Rpm, but might have been a fluke because haven't tried it since then. Also seems to be inconsistant fuel.

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    Highaboosta Unchained's Avatar
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    I've been running E85 for a couple months now and it has worked out real well. Where I'm at it is easily as available as race gas but for $3.45 / gal.
    The motor starts easy and runs clean and the exhaust doesn't even smell bad. At idle the motor runs quieter and smoother that gasoline.

    I just retuned the EFI and read the mixture on the O2 sensor and it was easy to change over or change back to gasoline.

    There's some good info on www.e85.com

    Twin Turbo 1800 HP V-Drive lake boat

    http://s621.photobucket.com/albums/t...t=MAH05771.mp4

    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    No one cares about your buddies old antiquated garden hose technology.
    Quote Originally Posted by MAXIMUS View Post
    I think I could run more boost but it's a real hand full right now

  9. #7
    Resident Ford Nut Sleeper CP's Avatar
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    Mark,

    What have you found as far as usage goes( are you burning 20-30% more fuel ? ) for the same amount of running time ?

    Sleeper CP

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  10. #8
    No Sandbar To Far sanger rat's Avatar
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    I'm running it too. Love it.
    Quote Originally Posted by One More Year View Post
    The only blab's I will even be a part of is just when it is me they are talking about. Aaaah yes I can see a few good looking shiny tall deck motors on the beach, with barely enough fuel to get back to the launch saying, "Holy crap how fast you think that Daytona was going man? That's like the 20th time he's gone by today?"

  11. #9
    just a ski boat with bark Carnivalride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unchained View Post
    I've been running E85 for a couple months now and it has worked out real well. Where I'm at it is easily as available as race gas but for $3.45 / gal.
    The motor starts easy and runs clean and the exhaust doesn't even smell bad. At idle the motor runs quieter and smoother that gasoline.

    I just retuned the EFI and read the mixture on the O2 sensor and it was easy to change over or change back to gasoline.

    There's some good info on www.e85.com
    Mark since your EFI and all can you tell me how much more E85 you burn at idle, light part throttle, cruise and WOT as compared to gasoline in a percentage? Did it affect your timing any? I’ve heard both ways on that one from other sources.

    Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by sanger rat View Post
    I'm running it too. Love it.
    Sanger rat what are you running carburetor(s) or injection?


    My thing here is that there’s really only two stations I can get E85 at and the savings as compared to av-gas with a touch of top lube wouldn’t pay off a conversion for about 3 years. That’s the real reason I’ve drug my feet, also when out of state race gas and av-gas seem to be easier to locate most of the time for me.


    Loren

  12. #10
    Highaboosta Unchained's Avatar
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    It's really hard to gauge any change in fuel consumption because, like running gas, if I just cruise around and keep the rpms below 3500 rpm I get around 2mpg which I think isn't too bad. But one or two 7000 rpm / 20# boost blasts consumes mass quantities And throws the whole fuel economy out the window.

    When I retuned for E85 I increased the injector timing by 30% across the board and that proved to be a little too much. About 27% was closer to the actual amount required.
    The injector timing at max boost / rpm went from 6.4 ms to 8.2 ms so that reflects the additional fuel required. Of the injector timing # it takes approx 1 ms to open and close the injector before it flows its rated amount.

    I think the thing I like best about E 85 is that I'm useing fuel that was
    made right here in Mi., or at least 85% of it anyways.

    Twin Turbo 1800 HP V-Drive lake boat

    http://s621.photobucket.com/albums/t...t=MAH05771.mp4

    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    No one cares about your buddies old antiquated garden hose technology.
    Quote Originally Posted by MAXIMUS View Post
    I think I could run more boost but it's a real hand full right now

  13. #11
    just a ski boat with bark Carnivalride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unchained View Post
    When I retuned for E85 I increased the injector timing by 30% across the board and that proved to be a little too much. About 27% was closer to the actual amount required.
    The injector timing at max boost / rpm went from 6.4 ms to 8.2 ms so that reflects the additional fuel required. Of the injector timing # it takes approx 1 ms to open and close the injector before it flows its rated amount.
    Thanks that's the info I was refering to, the 27% increse in your fuel maps. Did you increase, decrease or leave your total timing alone? I've heard E85 takes about 2* less than gasoline but I'm not sure why it would take less.

    I can only imagine what 7000rpm does with 20lbs of boost I know from my 2500-3000rpm cruising to my 7200rpm passes there is a major difference in fuel consumption just being NA.

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    Just Me snoc653's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unchained View Post
    I've been running E85 for a couple months now and it has worked out real well. Where I'm at it is easily as available as race gas but for $3.45 / gal.
    The motor starts easy and runs clean and the exhaust doesn't even smell bad. At idle the motor runs quieter and smoother that gasoline.

    I just retuned the EFI and read the mixture on the O2 sensor and it was easy to change over or change back to gasoline.

    There's some good info on www.e85.com
    So running EFI, you actually run O2 sensor(s) in your Headers? As I haven't put the manifold together, I'm not rebuilding or replacing anything. What type EFI system do you run?

  15. #13
    Highaboosta Unchained's Avatar
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    I didn't change the timing curve from gas. Its at 40 degrees at light load and drops to 30 degrees at max load. It probably could take more timing but it runs real nice the way it is.

    I run an O2 sensor in the 4" pipe about 6" from the turbo. The pipes are all dry so no water concerns there.

    I've been running a Haltech E6k for 6 seasons and it has worked well.
    I'm going to switch to a FAST XFI next month for some more EFI features.

    Twin Turbo 1800 HP V-Drive lake boat

    http://s621.photobucket.com/albums/t...t=MAH05771.mp4

    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    No one cares about your buddies old antiquated garden hose technology.
    Quote Originally Posted by MAXIMUS View Post
    I think I could run more boost but it's a real hand full right now

  16. #14
    No Sandbar To Far sanger rat's Avatar
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    I'm running Holley 4500's. I had them converted by www.classicmtrsprts.com I left the timing same as gas and added more boost. If I'm using any more fuel I don't notice it. My fuel system was already set up for alky so the only mod for me was the Carbs. No problems using aluminum tanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by One More Year View Post
    The only blab's I will even be a part of is just when it is me they are talking about. Aaaah yes I can see a few good looking shiny tall deck motors on the beach, with barely enough fuel to get back to the launch saying, "Holy crap how fast you think that Daytona was going man? That's like the 20th time he's gone by today?"

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