2500hp, over 9hp/cid , gettin it done with stock stuff
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2500hp, over 9hp/cid , gettin it done with stock stuff

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    Senior Member Hass828's Avatar
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    Default 2500hp, over 9hp/cid , gettin it done with stock stuff

    Check this stuff out. Only 281cid and over2500hp, 52psi of boost, on gasoline, 9600rpms, OEM block, OEM heads, OEM rockers, ect.
    John Mihovetz Runs 6.05 With 4.6L Mod Motor Mustang In Pomona - StangTV.com



    bet he could go real fast if he had a set of big aftermarket heads on there so he could run less boost.
    Last edited by Hass828; 07-23-2013 at 08:10 PM.
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    Senior Member Hass828's Avatar
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    Really good read on the car & engine in this yellowbullet thread.
    http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=417514
    Last edited by Hass828; 07-23-2013 at 08:10 PM.
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    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hass828 View Post



    bet he could go real fast if he had a set of big aftermarket heads on there so he could run less boost.
    Wonder why he even bothered with the twin OHC heads instead of the 1995 pre P.I. 2 valve single cam heads. WTF, whats a another 25 lbs of boost to equal the cylinder volume he is getting with the 4 valve heads. I think maybe you are underestimating the flow of the 4 v DOHC heads. Specially with some work. Maybe he should have spoken to you and Uncahined for some professional advice about flow with turbos and "THE KNOB"

    Maybe guys like him should stop listening to the experts like Duttweiler and Curtis Boggs and get the straight scoop from the turbo experts on PB.
    But then again, I need to keep in mind that these yahoos are just a bunch of wannabees and not the expert turbo gurus and members of the "Internet Racing Federation" we are use to dealing with on PB

    Pit Stop - Blown Versus Normally Aspirated Heads - Hot Rod Magazine


    It's harder to crutch a forced induction engine with an inherently poor exhaust port by adding additional cam duration, so port flow becomes much more critical than an NA setup. The old homily that you don't need good intake or exhaust ports on a boosted application "because boost will take care of everything" is plain out to lunch. A boosted application doesn't wait for the piston to draw the charge into the cylinder. Added intake port flow will reduce restriction and make more power on the intake side with less boost, but you also need that good exhaust flow to evacuate the port. In other words, you want the best intake port and the best exhaust port possible, within the constraints of the engine design and available space. So, unlike the Pro Stock example, you would not compromise the exhaust to pump up the intake; but you wouldn't reduce the intake side to pump up the exhaust, either.

    Out in the real world, you just don't see special aftermarket forced-induction heads being marketed for mainstream engines. This is confirmed by real-world head porters, blower specialists, and engine builders we talked to. For example, Paul Higgins at Pfaff Engines might spec a bigger head for a supercharged engine than for a similar-displacement NA engine, but that's because "if there's more air going in, you've got to get more air out." But the chosen head will be bigger on both the intake and exhaust sides.

    Custom head porter Curtis Boggs of Race Flow Development says, "We build a [supercharged engine] head as efficiently as we can based on a normally aspirated engine. Usually bigger valves don't help, but sometimes a bigger exhaust port can help a little bit." He adds, "Flow bench numbers can't duplicate what happens in the real world." Instead, Boggs looks at port efficiency and shape, the size of the port, and its ability to evacuate the cylinder. "I'm listening to the port, to make sure it's not turbulent, measuring with a nanometer. The E/I ratio is only good for the cam guy." As for specific race classes, the guys who run 10.5-inch slick or drag radial cars with turbos or blowers don't need to worry. "It's a case of mechanical force (the piston) forcing mixture out of the port. My turbo cylinder heads are exactly like my NA heads. On a turbo engine, you build the most efficient engine you can, then add the turbos."

    Interestingly, turbo engine builder Ken Duttweiler sometimes specs a smaller (than standard for the engine) exhaust valve on maximum-effort engines. The exhaust valve is opening into a pressure zone, so in this case it's mainly a matter of durability.

    There may be one instance where a larger exhaust port could be of benefit: the huge Roots blower in professional racing on alcohol-fueled engines making more than 2,500 hp. Running on alcohol with a 16-71 supercharger in Pro Mod or Top Alcohol, "requires a lot of exhaust port," Boggs says. "But again, there's not a hard-and-fast rule. We look at valve size versus cross-sectional area, port area, throat area, and area under the valve job. Airspeed and port efficiency make horsepower, not just cfm."

    Blower Drive Service's Craig Railsbeck, who's been building and selling custom superchargers for just about forever, chimes in, "Airflow, airflow, airflow! If you can afford it, use the best head, period. More flow on the intake and exhaust will benefit any engine!"




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    Last edited by gn7; 07-23-2013 at 08:32 PM.

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    This is Steve Matuseks old mustang I saw it run several years ago.It was a kick ass car then and it looks like it still is.No need to change much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bville View Post
    This is Steve Matuseks old mustang I saw it run several years ago.It was a kick ass car then and it looks like it still is.No need to change much.
    He sold it to build a new car.

    Probably with better flowing heads



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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Wonder why he even bothered with the twin OHC heads instead of the 1995 pre P.I. 2 valve single cam heads. WTF, whats a another 25 lbs of boost to equal the cylinder volume he is getting with the 4 valve heads. I think maybe you are underestimating the flow of the 4 v DOHC heads. Specially with some work. Maybe he should have spoken to you and Uncahined for some professional advice about flow with turbos and "THE KNOB"

    Maybe guys like him should stop listening to the experts like Duttweiler and Curtis Boggs and get the straight scoop from the turbo experts on PB.
    But then again, I need to keep in mind that these yahoos are just a bunch of wannabees and not the expert turbo gurus and members of the "Internet Racing Federation" we are use to dealing with on PB

    Pit Stop - Blown Versus Normally Aspirated Heads - Hot Rod Magazine


    It's harder to crutch a forced induction engine with an inherently poor exhaust port by adding additional cam duration, so port flow becomes much more critical than an NA setup. The old homily that you don't need good intake or exhaust ports on a boosted application "because boost will take care of everything" is plain out to lunch. A boosted application doesn't wait for the piston to draw the charge into the cylinder. Added intake port flow will reduce restriction and make more power on the intake side with less boost, but you also need that good exhaust flow to evacuate the port. In other words, you want the best intake port and the best exhaust port possible, within the constraints of the engine design and available space. So, unlike the Pro Stock example, you would not compromise the exhaust to pump up the intake; but you wouldn't reduce the intake side to pump up the exhaust, either.

    Out in the real world, you just don't see special aftermarket forced-induction heads being marketed for mainstream engines. This is confirmed by real-world head porters, blower specialists, and engine builders we talked to. For example, Paul Higgins at Pfaff Engines might spec a bigger head for a supercharged engine than for a similar-displacement NA engine, but that's because "if there's more air going in, you've got to get more air out." But the chosen head will be bigger on both the intake and exhaust sides.

    Custom head porter Curtis Boggs of Race Flow Development says, "We build a [supercharged engine] head as efficiently as we can based on a normally aspirated engine. Usually bigger valves don't help, but sometimes a bigger exhaust port can help a little bit." He adds, "Flow bench numbers can't duplicate what happens in the real world." Instead, Boggs looks at port efficiency and shape, the size of the port, and its ability to evacuate the cylinder. "I'm listening to the port, to make sure it's not turbulent, measuring with a nanometer. The E/I ratio is only good for the cam guy." As for specific race classes, the guys who run 10.5-inch slick or drag radial cars with turbos or blowers don't need to worry. "It's a case of mechanical force (the piston) forcing mixture out of the port. My turbo cylinder heads are exactly like my NA heads. On a turbo engine, you build the most efficient engine you can, then add the turbos."

    Interestingly, turbo engine builder Ken Duttweiler sometimes specs a smaller (than standard for the engine) exhaust valve on maximum-effort engines. The exhaust valve is opening into a pressure zone, so in this case it's mainly a matter of durability.

    There may be one instance where a larger exhaust port could be of benefit: the huge Roots blower in professional racing on alcohol-fueled engines making more than 2,500 hp. Running on alcohol with a 16-71 supercharger in Pro Mod or Top Alcohol, "requires a lot of exhaust port," Boggs says. "But again, there's not a hard-and-fast rule. We look at valve size versus cross-sectional area, port area, throat area, and area under the valve job. Airspeed and port efficiency make horsepower, not just cfm."

    Blower Drive Service's Craig Railsbeck, who's been building and selling custom superchargers for just about forever, chimes in, "Airflow, airflow, airflow! If you can afford it, use the best head, period. More flow on the intake and exhaust will benefit any engine!"
    Kinda contradictory Huh?
    Your right, instead of listening to the "Internet Racing Federation" go dig through your old pile of Hot Rod magazines for the REAL info. Is that where you get all of your info? Remember these are the same guys that did the great article that you loved so much about the LS turbo deal that couldnt be blown up.

    Seems to me the guy already knows about the "Knob" when he is already @ 52psi.

    No matter what all the banter says, you have to admit thats pretty impressive with only 281cid! and esp with that much OEM stuff.
    Last edited by Hass828; 07-24-2013 at 05:46 AM.
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    Pretty impressive.
    I'm wondering why it took 52# boost with a DOHC 4v head though.
    With that much airflow capacity I would have thought it would have only taken 14# boost,
    Or in absolutes,
    28# pressure with 325 degrees K intercooled intake air temperature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAXIMUS View Post
    I think I could run more boost but it's a real hand full right now

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    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hass828 View Post
    Kinda contradictory Huh?
    Your right, instead of listening to the "Internet Racing Federation" go dig through your old pile of Hot Rod magazines for the REAL info. Is that where you get all of your info? Remember these are the same guys that did the great article that you loved so much about the LS turbo deal that couldnt be blown up.

    Seems to me the guy already knows about the "Knob" when he is already @ 52psi.

    No matter what all the banter says, you have to admit thats pretty impressive with only 281cid! and esp with that much OEM stuff.
    I don't think I would be foolish enough to put Curtis Boggs and Ken Duttweiler in that same category as the "never accomplished a thing in their lives" wrecking yard hacks that turbo'd junk yard 5.3

    You didn't answer my question. Why didn't the guy make this 2500HP with a set of pre P.I. 2V single cam heads?????



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    Last edited by gn7; 07-24-2013 at 10:23 AM.

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    no question, mihovetz has done some cool stuff with small fords. he's also blown up a ton of 'em in the process, and won't hesitate to blow up the next one. his stuff isn't just for dynos or dyno videos...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    I don't think I would be foolish enough to put Curtis Boggs and Ken Duttweiler in that same category as the "never accomplished a thing in their lives" wrecking yard hacks that turbo'd junk yard 5.3

    You didn't answer my question. Why didn't the guy make this 2500HP with a set of pre P.I. 2V single cam heads?????
    I'm sure its like the rest of his program, he used the best OEM part available. And yes the 4v heads are kick ass, but still an OEM head. Its just killin ya that he just kept twistin the knob till he got all the way to 52psi isnt it?
    "if we keep doing it the same way we always do..we will always get the same results"
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    I've talked with him a few times about cam events,valve spring pressures and some other stuff on modulars. what's funny is he can only make about five and a half or 6 horsepower per cubic inch with a 5.4. the shorter the stroke the more horsepower he makes. I found this out about a year after I talk to him building a stroke 54 that was not impressive at all. It made more torque than all my 5.4's but the horsepower was not impressive and very sensitive to ignition timing. I broke that motor twice on the dyno. I've never built another stroked 5.4.

    I was talking to him one time about some camshafts I had made from lsm for a 54. His response was " would you let a strawberry picker paint your fucking house? I told him how big they were and he was laughing. I've built a couple hundred of them and do not use lsm camshafts.

    that dude is cool as hell to talk too. You will definitely learn stuff from him. (Well gn7 won't but I do). the engineers I deal with at Ford everyday told me, they flew out there from Detroit 2 talk to him. They wanted to figure out how he made so much power with stuff that was never designed to make nowhere near that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    I don't think I would be foolish enough to put Curtis Boggs and Ken Duttweiler in that same category as the "never accomplished a thing in their lives" wrecking yard hacks that turbo'd junk yard 5.3

    You didn't answer my question. Why didn't the guy make this 2500HP with a set of pre P.I. 2V single cam heads?????
    Because of the valve size.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 65BEAVER View Post

    that dude is cool as hell to talk too. You will definitely learn stuff from him. (Well gn7 won't but I do). the engineers I deal with at Ford everyday told me, they flew out there from Detroit 2 talk to him. They wanted to figure out how he made so much power with stuff that was never designed to make nowhere near that.
    I was at the Winternationals in Pomona when the original GM engineers for the BBC said exactly the same thing, back IN THE EARLY 70'S when Pro Stock was in its infancy. They were amazed, and could never believe they made that much power and SURVIVE!
    That's just it. They didn't REALLY survive in a way they consider surviving.

    Like building a military artillery gun that has to fire twice, and one that has to fire thousands of times, flawlessly.

    I use to have a late 1800s double barrel 10ga "goose gun" with 36 inch barrels and full choke, that would accept 3" magnum shells. I use to load shells a little heavy using "modern powders" and take it skeet shooting for shits and giggles. I could call pull, light a cigarette and still nail the clay. It would dislocate a shoulder if you held it wrong. Its was AWESOME!! FOR AWHILE! I still have it as an example of what NOT TO DO!



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    Last edited by gn7; 07-24-2013 at 08:37 PM.

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    Already miss the 310/562 2manymustangs's Avatar
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    me likey...



    Gents, keep in mind there are MAAAANNNNYYYYY OEM 281 blocks to choose from... Not as many as there are modular head castings... but MAAAAAAANNNNYYYY...

    I think the use of "factory rockers" are a testament to the merits of a cammer head... as is the case for cross bolting your mains into the skirts of the block... 21st century ideas??? I think not...


    Last edited by 2manymustangs; 07-25-2013 at 04:09 PM.
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