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bbc oil pumps

  1. #1
    senior member turbo wog's Avatar
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    Default bbc oil pumps

    i have been running a mellings high volume . i want a pump that has bigger rotors not just pressure from bypass mod or setting .i would like to have plenty of back-up oil reserve flow like for endurance. the oil gets hot it thins & pressure drops too low for my comfort. i ran wot & had only 40 psi of oil & the rod bearings are possibly showing unhappiness or its the water in the oil (very mild). something that would be capable to run synthetic oil too with big clearances. i believe the motor had .003 to .0035 bearing clearance & then the crank got polished twice. i have an oil cooler but it was turned off because it is plumbed with the carb & it was cold out. in the sumnmer it will be hot so i still could use the better oil pump when the cooler is turned on. usually i have @ 80psi then dropps to 60 at idle when it drops to 45 i like to cool it down. wot usually @60-80 warmed up.

    so whats available? i have heard about titan & just recently system 1. are they good ? anything else out there & how are they in comparison? thanks

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    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbo wog View Post
    i have been running a mellings high volume . i want a pump that has bigger rotors not just pressure from bypass mod or setting .i would like to have plenty of back-up oil reserve flow like for endurance. the oil gets hot it thins & pressure drops too low for my comfort. i ran wot & had only 40 psi of oil & the rod bearings are possibly showing unhappiness or its the water in the oil (very mild). something that would be capable to run synthetic oil too with big clearances. i believe the motor had .003 to .0035 bearing clearance & then the crank got polished twice. i have an oil cooler but it was turned off because it is plumbed with the carb & it was cold out. in the sumnmer it will be hot so i still could use the better oil pump when the cooler is turned on. usually i have @ 80psi then dropps to 60 at idle when it drops to 45 i like to cool it down. wot usually @60-80 warmed up.

    so whats available? i have heard about titan & just recently system 1. are they good ? anything else out there & how are they in comparison? thanks
    Turbo, where do you come up with these ideas?
    You are aware that an oil that is any larger than meets the requirements of the engine just bypasses the excess and heats up the oil. It accomplishes NOTHING.
    You disconnected the oil cooler, and what to make up for it by going to a larger pump.
    .003 and .0035 is not that huge. If you think they are larger than that now because the crank has been polished, then think about tightening them up.

    My GN runs at 35 psi idle hot and 55-60 psi hot at 7000+ and I have never hurt a bearing with that pressure. Lost a few when there was NO pressure.
    If you have 60-80 hot, you're just fine.

    The only difference between a System 1 pump and a Melling 77HV is the cap is modified to discharge the bypass into the pan instead of the pickup inlet. It does not tmove 1 oz more oil.
    The Titan is a superior design to the gear pump, but it doesn't move much more oil than a HV 77 either,. Also your pan needs to be modified to accept the Titan.

    You are aware that anytime your Mellings pump is pushing 65 psi it is just bypassing oil. Its in full bypass at 75 psi. How much more oil are you looking to bypass?

    Like having turbos big enough to make 60psi at WOT, but your BOV is set at 40. WTF!!!



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    Last edited by gn7; 01-26-2014 at 06:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbo wog View Post
    i have been running a mellings high volume . i want a pump that has bigger rotors not just pressure from bypass mod or setting .i would like to have plenty of back-up oil reserve flow like for endurance. the oil gets hot it thins & pressure drops too low for my comfort. i ran wot & had only 40 psi of oil & the rod bearings are possibly showing unhappiness or its the water in the oil (very mild). something that would be capable to run synthetic oil too with big clearances. i believe the motor had .003 to .0035 bearing clearance & then the crank got polished twice. i have an oil cooler but it was turned off because it is plumbed with the carb & it was cold out. in the sumnmer it will be hot so i still could use the better oil pump when the cooler is turned on. usually i have @ 80psi then dropps to 60 at idle when it drops to 45 i like to cool it down. wot usually @60-80 warmed up.

    so whats available? i have heard about titan & just recently system 1. are they good ? anything else out there & how are they in comparison? thanks
    There's a huge difference in oil flow between .003" and .0035". You need to know more about your bearing clearances before you worry about your oil supply.
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcomp View Post
    There's a huge difference in oil flow between .003" and .0035". You need to know more about your bearing clearances before you worry about your oil supply.
    off the top of my head that's what i remember them saying when they did the motor years ago( between .003 & .0035) is what they said,he might have been generalizing i guess,its been a lot of years. i guess i can have them measure for me .i would do it myself but i don't have the inside measuring tool for rods.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Turbo, where do you come up with these ideas?
    You are aware that an oil that is any larger than meets the requirements of the engine just bypasses the excess and heats up the oil. It accomplishes NOTHING.
    You disconnected the oil cooler, and what to make up for it by going to a larger pump.
    .003 and .0035 is not that huge. If you think they are larger than that now because the crank has been polished, then think about tightening them up.

    My GN runs at 35 psi idle hot and 55-60 psi hot at 7000+ and I have never hurt a bearing with that pressure. Lost a few when there was NO pressure.
    If you have 60-80 hot, you're just fine.

    The only difference between a System 1 pump and a Melling 77HV is the cap is modified to discharge the bypass into the pan instead of the pickup inlet. It does not tmove 1 oz more oil.
    The Titan is a superior design to the gear pump, but it doesn't move much more oil than a HV 77 either,. Also your pan needs to be modified to accept the Titan.

    You are aware that anytime your Mellings pump is pushing 65 psi it is just bypassing oil. Its in full bypass at 75 psi. How much more oil are you looking to bypass?

    Like having turbos big enough to make 60psi at WOT, but your BOV is set at 40. WTF!!!
    Q:Turbo, where do you come up with these ideas?
    A:what idea? of higher volume oil pump? i did not think of it, it was already thought of.
    A: MY last batch of BEARINGS DID NOT LOOK GOOD & i had the oil cooler on.
    A:i ran wot & had only 40 psi of oil

    Q:You are aware that an oil that is any larger than meets the requirements of the engine just bypasses the excess and heats up the oil.
    A: no i was not aware that if the pump is in bypass it heated up the oil (good to know,thanks) . i thought that if it idles cold at 80 psi that the bypass would be set at 80 then. i thought once the oil heated & dropped to 60 it might be beneficial to raise the flow to be at 80 instead of 60 wot. i also though the more oil that flows over the bearing that it cools them better. i also thought about using synthetic to let the turbos spool quicker & cool the bearings too(ceramic bearings on turbos).

    Q:
    You disconnected the oil cooler, and what to make up for it by going to a larger pump?
    A: no ,i said even with the cooler hooked up it gets pretty hot quickly. i said that i slow it down & let it cool off when i see 45psi of oil. i don't want to have to slow down to cool the oil off as often as i do on the river for instance.

    Q:.003 and .0035 is not that huge. If you think they are larger than that now because the crank has been polished, then think about tightening them up.
    A: yes i think i need to have it checked, it is on the agenda.

    Q:You are aware that anytime your Mellings pump is pushing 65 psi it is just bypassing oil. Its in full bypass at 75 psi. How much more oil are you looking to bypass?
    A:no i did not know that it is in full bypass at 75psi! not wanting to bypass any i guess. was hoping for a different pump that would NOT be in full bypass at 75 psi. i noticed earlier in the year it was going up to 80-85 wot building psi .probably first or second run of the day.after that's when i did not pay attention & heated the oil & ran low psi on some wot runs. maybe the bearing issue is boiling water vapor scorching the bearings when vaporizing in the oil at the bearings instead of oil pressure problem?

    Q;Like having turbos big enough to make 60psi at WOT, but your BOV is set at 40. WTF!!!
    A: wtf? i believe i have a real concern about getting a bit more oil to the motor,even the cam doesn't look very good. kind of like insurance if not needed & a must if needed.your motor runs great with what pressure you are running & mine looks like dog shit . i want to get my pile right. this is not fantasy internet racing , i run the crap out of mine & have real issues. -thanks for the info provided

    so, if it certain that i will need more oil , will a titan oil pump heat the oil less if bypassing than traditional oil pumps? i understand they can build one for what i need ,volume,pressure etc..

    is there something slightly better than the mellings hv that i could possibly beneifit from?
    maybe a bigger oil cooler might be the way? if one will fit.

    could the problem be that it is a stock block & does not have priority oiling?
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    Last edited by turbo wog; 01-27-2014 at 12:54 AM.

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    The reason the oil pressure hits 80 psi cold is because the bypass cannot handle all the oil being bypassed and the pressure in the engine is higher. Its only a pressure bleed, it was never intended to handle all the oil the pump can move. Just because you see 80 lbs cold is no indication the bypass is a 80 lb bypass.

    The cam wear has nothing, ZERO to do with oil pressure.

    Worse, I see nothing in the bearings that indicated an oil pressure problem.
    Looking at these bearings, all the pressure in the world isn't going to help you. Your crank or rods are a mess. I would lean towards the crank. Odds are, who ever "polished" it jacked it up. Not to unusual for over zealous guys on the crank polisher.
    I would get the crank turned by somebody that knows what they doing!!


    This is NOT an oil pressure problem, its a crankshaft problem.




    Turbo, there is HUGE difference between pressure and flow. There is water pressure in your home plumbing full time, but it only flows when the faucet is open. You can have pressure and ZERO flow.
    Stop worrying about pressure and start worrying more about flow.
    Like getting rid of the corner hardware store brass 90* fitting in that filter adaptor.
    $10,000 in turbos, and 1.00 in oil fittings.




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    Last edited by gn7; 01-27-2014 at 08:49 AM.

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    Does checking oil pressure at the front of the block make any difference?

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    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoldHondaBoughtHondo View Post
    Does checking oil pressure at the front of the block make any difference?
    Very little.



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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Stop worrying about pressure and start worrying more about flow.
    Like getting rid of the corner hardware store brass 90* fitting in that filter adaptor.
    First thing I noticed. Hard to tell but it looks like a cast adapter with 3/8 npt and #8 fittings? They might be #10, hard to tell. Those 90 deg brass fittings are horrible for flow and if they are #8 hoses, they are only 3/8" ID. Not enough volume. If you have to run a 90 deg out of the adapter, use a 90 deg tube style hose end and a straight fitting. What oil filter? What fittings are there in the whole oil cooler/remote filter system? I'm betting there are a number of restrictions in the oil flow. Does it still have the stock cast filter adapter with the shitty bypass built in?

    I agree with Bob about the crank and the polishing. I would be surprised if the journals are straight or round.
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    You are getting sound advice. A 90 degree fitting reduces oil flow by 25%. A 45 x 15%. Follow the advice from Brian and confirm the size you have.

    Also I can't tell from the pictures but it looks like the bearings have some "clouding". If the bearing looks like it has ghost images of what looks like clouds that is super heated air that is leaving those issues. This tells you that you are aerrating the oil somewhere in your system.
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    finally some great advise by all! the hoses to the oil filter are #10 but i never have thought of changing those brass 90* fittings . they have been on there since i bought the boat! must have turned invisible. i have a huge filter & housing that i went to recently & the fittings i put on are good stuff. i will respond to more on here later-thanks all
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  14. #12
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    If you can, make all of your changes of direction with the hose ends and not the fittings.
    With today's oils I don't see any need in an application like this for more than .003-.0032 main and .0025-.0028 rod clearance. With those clearances you can run just about as heavy an oil as you want. Personally, I'd run a good quality 10-40 synthetic. Keep remote filters and coolers as close to the oil pump as possible...every inch of hose is just more resistance to flow. Your oil pan is going to have a lot to do with all this and the overall health and well being of your engine and it's oiling system..
    Last edited by scott foxwell; 01-28-2014 at 01:24 PM.
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    lose THOSE filters..... use Baldwin filters! I think you will be very suprised after you lose the filters and restrictions how well your pressure responds, on another note...... Was your block mains line honed?
    Only reason I ask is... If your block isnt straight it really doesn't matter how you polish your crank..... My 02

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    We run -12 with full flow fittings. Every sharp bend in the oiling system will make heat IE 90 degree fitting.We run the system 1 pump it's been great, would buy another. It's had trash ran trough it due to lifter failure just cleaned the burrs off the gears & went on.
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