Vacuum pumps
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Vacuum pumps

  1. #1
    Boat 502 76Miller's Avatar
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    Default Vacuum pumps

    I know there was probably a hundred threads to read on hotboat about this topic but..........nothing here yet. Was wondering what kind of pumps(brand) you guys are using and if there are any to stay away from ? I was looking at the Aerospace and the Star pumps but not sure what rings to run with or how much vacuum. I'm sure its trial and error on the dyno, like everything else. I was told 12'' is a good amount and 14-15'' is too much. Any comments or pics of set ups would be cool. Thanks.

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    Having no experience with a vacuum pump but dealing with high crankcase vacuum (actualy depresion, no such thing as vacuum) dry sump systems I can give you a little insight on the pro's and con's of crankcase depresion.
    When putting a crankcase under depression there is the power gain from decreasing the resistance of moving the oil being slung around by the reciprocating assy. The assy parts also are "free" to move around in this state also. Also, by increasing the pressure differential from top of piston to bottom makes it think it is making more pressure (work). This increased pressure differencial makes it easier for the ring to seal to the bottom of the ringland to more efficiently use (capture) the cylinder pressure/work.This contributes a little, but most of the gain is in the decreased windage, or loss from the windage. Atmospheric preasure gives this resistance and when going from pressure to depression it is the lack of atmosphere that gives the power gain.
    This is a good thing to a point, but once over a certain amount things get a little touchy. In a depressive state oil starts to loose it's abilty to cling to parts (again, good for power) but can be tough on duarability. The first things negativly effected are the wrist pins and bores. The depression is trying pull the oil apart and makes it difficult to splash feed the pin bores. Less oil on the cylinder walls also means less oil to feed through the holes in the oil ring lands if being used. All of this contribute to wrist pin/piston failures. This also isn't doing the bottom of the piston any good as you lose the abilty for oil splash to pull heat out of the piston.
    This all can be addressed by pressure feeding the pin through the rod beam, and/or by spraying the piston with oiler jets.
    Then there is the problem with oil foaming. As depression increases, the oil is trying to be puled apart and the anti-foaming agents lose their ability to keep the oil together. As depression goes up, the temp this will happen at decreases. This isn't a huge deal when working with a dry sump as you are sucking the oil out as fast as possible and sending it to the tank where, if properly designed, it should remove areation and restore the oil back to it's original state. In a wet sump system there is no such thing so oil is forced to live in this enviroment leading to foaming/aereation issues and oiling problems, getting greater as oil temp increases.
    In our systems we run well over 20in of depression, but because of the above mentioned problems have to address other problems to make it work/live in an endurance application.
    If used in moderation (12in or less sounds about right for wet sump) it can be very advantagouse. Anything above this and other systems must be implicated to make it work.

    I am sure I have cobled this up as I am no writer, but you should be able to read between the lines (and spelling errors) and get the idea.

    Damn, I better get my ass going or I am going to be late!!



    Warp Speed

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    The above mentioned issue's seem to start happening at anything over about 14-15in of depression in a dry sump engine and increase rapidly as the amount of depresion goes up. Maybe a little less in a wet sump system.
    It may be tough to acheive these levels of depresion in most engines due to oem seal design, (designed more to keep pressure from creating a leak out instead of sealing in the opposite direction) from the amount in cfm of blow-by in the cylinders or from larger displacement engines.

    Warp Speed

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    .........Not much to fill in there. Great post.... thanks

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    Resident Ford Nut Sleeper CP's Avatar
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    Wayne congrats on the baby,

    I think it was Futs that ran his engine both way's, I hope he post's if it wasn't him I'll stand corrected. 9" vaccum it was worth 20+ hp ? ? I think.

    We'll see.

    Sleeper CP

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    fast is the other half.
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    Senior Member Futs's Avatar
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    Im running a aerospace set up. Im running a standard ring pack (hellfire top ring for nitrous) and am pulling about 9" for river duty. I ran mine both ways on the dyno back to back pulls and it made 30hp more than without. I havnt ran it on the river yet just on the dyno. We will see how it works out.

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    Boat 502 76Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeper CP View Post
    Wayne congrats on the baby,

    I think it was Futs that ran his engine both way's, I hope he post's if it wasn't him I'll stand corrected. 9" vaccum it was worth 20+ hp ? ? I think.

    We'll see.

    Sleeper CP
    Thanks ! He's a handful, but totally worth it ! Ya, I was kicking the idea around, to go w/ a vacuum pump. I read that they really help eliminate those damn oil leaks too. Have you done any research on them ? Brand wise ?

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    Boat 502 76Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Futs View Post
    Im running a aerospace set up. Im running a standard ring pack (hellfire top ring for nitrous) and am pulling about 9" for river duty. I ran mine both ways on the dyno back to back pulls and it made 30hp more than without. I havnt ran it on the river yet just on the dyno. We will see how it works out.

    Futs, whats up man ? Hey were you in that 21' Southwind for sale @ the Tom Papp deal ?? Anyway, I was looking at those Aerospace pumps, and they look pretty clean.Does the kit they offer make it pretty painless to mount ? If you get a chance could you post some pics ? Thanks man.

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    Resident Ford Nut Sleeper CP's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info Futs, I thought it was you. How many inches is your engine?


    76 Miller,

    Yes I have given much thought about the vac pump. SDPM(Neil) and I have talked about it for some time. I was going to do one 5 yrs. ago and then my bro and I dropped out of going to the river for 4 yrs. The vac pump's also help control the oil splash and pressure as a side benefit of added HP.

    I have looked at the Aerospace and the Moroso I understand that they are both good units. It's just finding the proper kit(mounting bracket's and tank) that fit your application.

    This Winter I'm going to take the boat back to the Upholstery shop to have the rear seat re-located, pushed back 3". Once that is done we can see if we have the room to install one. If we do I'll start looking again. 25-30 Hp is hard to over look or look over in this case.

    Sleeper CP
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    steelcomp was here
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    Nothing to add to Warp's post. He pretty much covered it. I ran one on my engine as an after thought, so I didn't go with low tension rings, but even then, it's worth power. I ran the Moroso. I did a bunch of research and didn't like the idea of a converted automotive pump. I'm sure they're fine, just wasn't what I was comfortable with. Jones products makes some nice mounts and drive systems for them.
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.

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    Senior Member Futs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 76Miller View Post
    Futs, whats up man ? Hey were you in that 21' Southwind for sale @ the Tom Papp deal ?? Anyway, I was looking at those Aerospace pumps, and they look pretty clean.Does the kit they offer make it pretty painless to mount ? If you get a chance could you post some pics ? Thanks man.
    Yeah, that was me the cruisers out there...lol
    Anyways, the kit was painless and very easy to mount ect.

    CP, its on a 548ci 10.2/1 pump gas deal.Wish I would of stepped up on the compression now,its almost cheaper to run good gas now.

    Here is the only pics I have right now.



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    steelcomp was here
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    Quote Originally Posted by Futs View Post
    Yeah, that was me the cruisers out there...lol
    Anyways, the kit was painless and very easy to mount ect.

    CP, its on a 548ci 10.2/1 pump gas deal.Wish I would of stepped up on the compression now,its almost cheaper to run good gas now.

    Here is the only pics I have right now.


    Nice, Tim.
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.

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    You guys might want to look at the Swedish Auto-Verdi vacuum pump.

    http://www.autoverdi.com/about.html

    We've been running a six stage system for the last five + years and have been more than pleased with its performance and reliability. While Auto-Verdi's systems are more expensive than alot of the others, their advanced design and quality are well worth the money. Note that in the last 5 years a majority of the NASCAR boys have switched to these systems.

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    Ok, since I got on my depression tangent yesterday morning I forgot to get back to the original question. What are you using and how much depression are you seeing??

    Futs, thanks for posting some real info in this direction.
    You stated you ran 9in, is that just what it made or did you use a regulator valve to limit it to this??

    Steel, what depression numbers did you see and did you have to use a regulator??

    What types of belts, and what pulley ratio's are the norm?

    I guess another question would be what type of seals are you using in these engines. Factory type crank seals front and rear? Jesel belt front stock rear? Ect.

    I have a pump on the list of winter upgrades so this thread came at a perfect time.

    Thanks,

    Warp Speed

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