Dry Sump Questions
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Dry Sump Questions

  1. #1
    Senior Member Woods 017's Avatar
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    Default Dry Sump Questions

    I am kicking around the idea of putting a dry sump set up in the Place Craft and figured this would be a good place to ask a few questions. Other than the obvious benefits of better oil control in the motor what other benefits are there to gain? Also what brands and how many stages are current race teams using? The boat will be run on the river as well as the track. Is pulling the amount of Vacuum that a modern day dry sump pulls going to be hard on parts (ie wrist pins) and if so are things like oil squirters worth looking into? Thankyou in advance for your responses.

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    Red Blooded American The Doctor's Avatar
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    There's way to many variables to quantify the need for a dry sump or the quality of a system from a snap shot but here goes my $.02.
    First and foremost, is the price of the system. If you need the benefits so much that the price justifies the need, then you must go for it. We run them on our funny cars but not on our dragsters or boats. Keep in mind, there are other contributing factors that determine the need.
    Next, have you had oiling problems? Loss of oil pressure in hard corners, acceleration, deceleration, etc? A different pan and pickup could cure this.
    Now, there are benefits but some are short term. For an all out race engine, you can draw lots of vacuum, create better ring seal, decrease windage and eliminate pan slosh almost completely with a good system. All of these benefits have a long term cost. If you pull too much vacuum, you can rapidly decrease the engine's life. If this is a lake boat for regular usage, that's counterproductive. Oftentimes you are required to perform internal tricks such as turning seals back-wards, over-seal gaskets, etc. to get the maximum benefits from your system.
    Horsepower is a plus but it comes with a cost. Unless you are very careful not to pull too much vacuum - thus sacrificing some power, you will experience more frequent rebuilds.

    It all boils down to what you really need and want to accomplish. We have a twin-turbo BBC Schiada river cruiser and plan on getting three to five seasons out of our recent rebuild. I wouldn't use a dry sump here as a good performance wet sump system will suffice quite well. Our flats are also wet sump boats. Now, if we built an all-out drag boat (which will never happen as long as my sons are my drivers) I'd consider wringing every bit of HP I could get out of our power-plant with a dry sump system.

    I know others here will add vital info that I didn't.
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    Senior Member Woods 017's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info. As for the use the boat will be run on the river for short periods of time. The motor is also torn down and inspected every winter.
    Last edited by Woods 017; 02-16-2009 at 02:15 PM.

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    Senior Member Woods 017's Avatar
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    Any body else have details they would like to share? What size scavage tubes are most large cubic inch Big Block Chevys running? Also how many are running a air-oil seperator?

    This piece is a little out of my price range but sure is nice looking


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    Senior Member VDRIVERACING's Avatar
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    Haven't used them, but a number of GN teams do, and they may chip in here. For a circle boat, I presume it's an oil control measure, and many gurus will write that added HP is the prevented parasitic loss of HP, and that's not the main benefit. Oiling management is what these systems are designed for.

    There is a lot of money involved, you know that already, and exponentially more things to check and maintain (every fitting, pump, etc). But...if you are having trouble managing your oil flow due to splash or g-force, it will work.

    I race in some pretty rough stuff, and do not have oiling problems, and have read a number of threads where someone was using an inferior pan, and a quality pan corrected the problem. It's evident you are doing your homework. Good luck!

  8. #6
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    A good pan is needed.
    The best pump you can afford.

    -16 supply from tank to pump.
    -12 supply to engine.
    -12 scavenge lines from the pan.

    Valley scavenge (if applicable) can be -10 and/or a smaller scavenge section, but only best to do it if the bottom end and valley are separate (sealed from each other) otherwise you should run the same size hose and section there also.

    dual -16 returns to the tank.

    A properly designed oil tank will separate air and oil just fine so nothing else is needed. If a separator is needed, there is a problem (leak) in the system or poor design in pan/tank ect.

    It's my opinion that you shouldn't run a vacuum (depression) pump with a dry sump system as they can take away efficiency from your scavenge sections. If you need separate pump to pull big depression numbers, you need a better quality/bigger scavenge section size dry sump pump or need to work on your sealing (rings/crank and cam seals ect.).


  9. #7
    Resident Ford Nut Sleeper CP's Avatar
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    Jordan,

    A side from Moroso here is another I don't know the pricing:

    http://www.aviaid.com/pdfs/cat05.pdf

    A friend of ours ran a dry-sump in his 21 Eliminator Vee years ago he would run from Martinez up river 12-14 miles at 4,500- 5,000 .... that was back when gas was cheap. He loved the system.

    Sleeper CP

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    Senior Member motormonkey's Avatar
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    Things to also consider is the space they take ,the weight they add , the cost and the noise for a lake boat.
    The plus side is many for racing at certian levels or conditions.

  11. #9
    Senior Member Woods 017's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp Speed View Post
    A good pan is needed.
    The best pump you can afford.

    -16 supply from tank to pump.
    -12 supply to engine.
    -12 scavenge lines from the pan.

    Valley scavenge (if applicable) can be -10 and/or a smaller scavenge section, but only best to do it if the bottom end and valley are separate (sealed from each other) otherwise you should run the same size hose and section there also.

    dual -16 returns to the tank.

    A properly designed oil tank will separate air and oil just fine so nothing else is needed. If a separator is needed, there is a problem (leak) in the system or poor design in pan/tank ect.

    It's my opinion that you shouldn't run a vacuum (depression) pump with a dry sump system as they can take away efficiency from your scavenge sections. If you need separate pump to pull big depression numbers, you need a better quality/bigger scavenge section size dry sump pump or need to work on your sealing (rings/crank and cam seals ect.).

    Thanks for the info.

    I stopped by Auto Verdi today and they recomened something in the ball park of a 38mm preasure section and a 43mm scavage section. They also recomended a two rotor systems oposed to a three because of the river use. Does this sound right to you guys? Their pumps are extrmely pricey new but I did see a few floating around the interent used. Are there certain things I should be aware of if I do buy a used dry sump pump?
    Also? how mnay stages were you refuring to w/ the above setup?
    Thanks again for all the help.

  12. #10
    Resident Ford Nut Sleeper CP's Avatar
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    Jordan,

    If you are looking for better oil control it's my understanding that an external pump:



    Like this are great for oil control. Not near as costly as a dry-sump yet give far better psi and control over a typical wet sump. This one that was given to me years ago was on a engine that the external pressure set screw was set at 70 psi. The engine had 70 psi at idle or 6,800 rpm the psi was always the same ( so I was told, I've never put it on anything) Edit: It had 40 at idle and 70 at 2,000-6,800 with hot oil.

    In anycase if you want to improve upon the standard wet sump system, but don't want to bite off the dry sump, this type of system is a good compromise. Many car road race classes use them where dry-sumps are not legal, but these external belt driven pumps are.

    Just something to think about.

    Sleeper CP

    Jon
    Last edited by Sleeper CP; 02-18-2009 at 09:47 PM.

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  13. #11
    Senior Member Woods 017's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeper CP View Post
    Jordan,

    If you are looking for better oil control it's my understanding that an external pump:

    Like this are great for oil control. Not near as costly as a dry-sump yet give far better psi and control over a typical wet sump. This one that was given to me years ago was on a engine that the external pressure set screw was set at 70 psi. The engine had 70 psi at idle or 6,800 rpm the psi was always the same ( so I was told, I've never put it on anything)

    In anycase if you want to improve upon the standard wet sump system, but don't want to bite off the dry sump, this type of system is a good compromise. Many car road race classes use them where dry-sumps are not legal, but these external belt driven pumps are.

    Just something to think about.

    Sleeper CP

    Jon
    Jon,

    I just think there alot of advantages to running a dry sump over a wet sump not only in reliability but also in power. I've seen those external pumps before. There cool but if I'm going to run a wet sump I'll just stick w/ my Titan. Thanks for the info.

  14. #12
    Senior Member Boat 405's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuelinmyveins82 View Post
    Thanks for the info.

    I stopped by Auto Verdi today and they recomened something in the ball park of a 38mm preasure section and a 43mm scavage section. They also recomended a two rotor systems oposed to a three because of the river use. Does this sound right to you guys? Their pumps are extrmely pricey new but I did see a few floating around the interent used. Are there certain things I should be aware of if I do buy a used dry sump pump?
    Also? how mnay stages were you refuring to w/ the above setup?
    Thanks again for all the help.
    Six stage pump is what i'm going to run. Talk to Warp. Be careful about buying a used pump.

    one pressure section, 5 scavenge sections, 4 from the pan, one from the valley or heads

  15. #13
    Senior Member Woods 017's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by widowmaker View Post
    Six stage pump is what i'm going to run. Talk to Warp. Be careful about buying a used pump.

    one pressure section, 5 scavenge sections, 4 from the pan, one from the valley or heads
    Nice.

  16. #14
    Senior Member Boat 405's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp Speed View Post
    A good pan is needed.
    The best pump you can afford.

    -16 supply from tank to pump.
    -12 supply to engine.
    -12 scavenge lines from the pan.

    Valley scavenge (if applicable) can be -10 and/or a smaller scavenge section, but only best to do it if the bottom end and valley are separate (sealed from each other) otherwise you should run the same size hose and section there also.

    dual -16 returns to the tank.

    A properly designed oil tank will separate air and oil just fine so nothing else is needed. If a separator is needed, there is a problem (leak) in the system or poor design in pan/tank ect.

    It's my opinion that you shouldn't run a vacuum (depression) pump with a dry sump system as they can take away efficiency from your scavenge sections. If you need separate pump to pull big depression numbers, you need a better quality/bigger scavenge section size dry sump pump or need to work on your sealing (rings/crank and cam seals ect.).

    warp you have a pm

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