Twin Turbo 509
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Twin Turbo 509

  1. #1
    Member NY CVX-20's Avatar
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    Default Twin Turbo 509

    Hello -I started this in the jet boat section and was told I'd get better feedback here so sorry for the duplicate posting...

    For the 20+ years I've owned my boats all I've ever dealt with is the stock big blocks so I'm a newby when it comes to performance engines. I bought a Gale Banks kit and had a 509 built so that I can run turbos but I'm not sure which direction to go (blow thru Vs draw thru). I've read several posts talking about how draw thru is old school and it's not as good, etc and I totally get it since its 1980's technology. But for someone like me whose goal is to have a pump gas, low boost reliable engine, would I really be gaining that much by converting my Banks kit to a blow thru? I'm looking at money & time Vs overall gain. More importantly, would the Banks kit I bought work on the engine I have (Gale Banks kit with the 301 E 10 RayJays, but it only has the smaller intercooler)? I'm at a standstill and I'm not sure which direction to go so I was hoping to get some opinions on what I should do. If I stick with the current Banks kit then all I need to be done with this 4 year project is buy a carburetor and I'm good to go. If I convert to blow thru then I still need a carb but also need to buy a carb hat & fabricate some boost tubes to tie it all together which will take up more time and money. I appreciate the feedback, thank you.


    Gen 6 BBC 509
    JE Blower pistons 8.1 compression
    Scat H beam rods
    GM Forged Crank
    Comp Cam Camshaft -custom grind for turbos
    Gen 6 BBC Iron Heads with Inconnel Valves
    Comp Cam Ultra Pro Magnum Rockers
    MSD ignition

    The shop that built the engine ran it on the dyno N/A and she made 550 HP at 5500 RPM, 593 TQ at 4100 RPM.
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    1979 Glastron Carlson CVX-20, 460 jet w/diverter

    1972 Glastron Carlson CV-21, Twin Turbo 509 ( http://www.classicglastron.com/phpbb...hp?f=34&t=5596 )

    http://www.youtube.com/user/stanger311

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  3. #2
    Member NY CVX-20's Avatar
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    Ok, I admit I have a tendency to write too much and people probably don't want to read that much detail so I'll simplify my question lol..

    If my goal is to have a pump gas, low boost turbo engine for now.. would there be THAT much of a difference if I went to blow thru Vs sticking with the old draw thru banks set up?
    1979 Glastron Carlson CVX-20, 460 jet w/diverter

    1972 Glastron Carlson CV-21, Twin Turbo 509 ( http://www.classicglastron.com/phpbb...hp?f=34&t=5596 )

    http://www.youtube.com/user/stanger311

  4. #3
    Urban Cougar Trapper Gopher711's Avatar
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    have you tried calling Banks tech support ?
    http://oathkeepers.org
    Due to the fact that GOD limited mans intelligence , it's unfortunate he did not also limit his Stupidity !!!

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  6. #4
    Member NY CVX-20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gopher711 View Post
    have you tried calling Banks tech support ?
    I have not, however, I've read several times on these boards that Banks will not offer support on these old kits from the 70's & 80's. I suppose I could try though
    1979 Glastron Carlson CVX-20, 460 jet w/diverter

    1972 Glastron Carlson CV-21, Twin Turbo 509 ( http://www.classicglastron.com/phpbb...hp?f=34&t=5596 )

    http://www.youtube.com/user/stanger311

  7. #5
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    Default You Might

    Quote Originally Posted by NY CVX-20 View Post
    Hello -I started this in the jet boat section and was told I'd get better feedback here so sorry for the duplicate posting...

    For the 20+ years I've owned my boats all I've ever dealt with is the stock big blocks so I'm a newby when it comes to performance engines. I bought a Gale Banks kit and had a 509 built so that I can run turbos but I'm not sure which direction to go (blow thru Vs draw thru). I've read several posts talking about how draw thru is old school and it's not as good, etc and I totally get it since its 1980's technology. But for someone like me whose goal is to have a pump gas, low boost reliable engine, would I really be gaining that much by converting my Banks kit to a blow thru? I'm looking at money & time Vs overall gain. More importantly, would the Banks kit I bought work on the engine I have (Gale Banks kit with the 301 E 10 RayJays, but it only has the smaller intercooler)? I'm at a standstill and I'm not sure which direction to go so I was hoping to get some opinions on what I should do. If I stick with the current Banks kit then all I need to be done with this 4 year project is buy a carburetor and I'm good to go. If I convert to blow thru then I still need a carb but also need to buy a carb hat & fabricate some boost tubes to tie it all together which will take up more time and money. I appreciate the feedback, thank you.


    Gen 6 BBC 509
    JE Blower pistons 8.1 compression
    Scat H beam rods
    GM Forged Crank
    Comp Cam Camshaft -custom grind for turbos
    Gen 6 BBC Iron Heads with Inconnel Valves
    Comp Cam Ultra Pro Magnum Rockers
    MSD ignition

    The shop that built the engine ran it on the dyno N/A and she made 550 HP at 5500 RPM, 593 TQ at 4100 RPM.
    Contact Steve Morris Racing Engines. He is on the web.

  8. #6
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    While the blow-thru may have more potential, I'd use the system you have.
    The draw thru has been around for a long time and still produces very good power.
    There is no reason it won't make as much power as when they came out and with the newer cams, maybe more.
    Since you already have the parts for the draw thru, try it. Purchasing the additional parts for a blow thru won't be cheap.

  9. #7
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    From my understanding the blow threw will have better running manners. Even if you dont want more power, which blow threw will have. The draw threws are known to have fuel puddling issues. The fuel will fall out of suspension with the air (draw threw). Causing hard starts (rich condition). The fuel comsumption will be less with blow threw, better tune ability. The fuel clings to the walls and everything else in the system with draw threw. I have no experence with them, just sharing what l know from trying to learning turbo stuff.
    Im supprised the carb/turbo guys have not chimmed in.
    Run what you have, switch it later if its an issue for you. The increase in hp, and better mpg might be worth it?
    Let us know how it turns out either way.

    Be safe, schick

    Oh, l forgot the draw threw needs a carbon seal that you already have in those turbos. But, it is prone to wear and not supported any longer. I believe this is one of the main reasons they faded out and went to the blow threw, it needs no carbon seal. This is becuase the turbo is only compressing air. Not a air fuel mixture.
    Half the people in the world are below average.

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    another reason for blow through is if the charge pipe lets go it only causes air leakage...not a highly combustible mixture.....and no compressor wants a restriction (carburetor) on its inlet...makes the compressor work at a higher pressure ratio to hit target boost.

  11. #9
    Senior Member Hass828's Avatar
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    My old Banks setup always started and cruised -ran just fine. Made pretty good power too. But , the plugs were always black. No way around that. The fuel does puddle and makes pinpointing a tuneup almost impossible---so it will get to run fat. I also had a 325hp shot of NOS on mine. That engine lived a long-long life.
    Going blowthrough will allow a nice clean tune, which also makes more power. The turbos wont have fuel in the airstream taking up space were more 02 could be. Just a better, cleaner running system all around. With the correct turbos and a good blowthrough it can make more power than you will ever need and wont need the NOS.
    Can be done just fine for a cruiser with drawthrough though. So if you say time/money is an issue, then go ahead with the drawthrough. Changing over to a blowthrough can be a future upgrade if you are unhappy with your results.

    Last edited by Hass828; 03-17-2016 at 06:41 PM.
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  12. #10
    Senior Member Fireguy's Avatar
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    I'm gonna go the other way on this. As one of those blow-thru turbo guys, I vote to ditch it. As haas was saying, it will work but not as well as your hoping, I think. In the end, you'll probably be money ahead. Also, you will get excellent tech support from who ever you have build the carb (I recommend CSU because of his support). Either way, you won't be wrong and you'll have fun.



    Disclaimer- I tend to over build everything like I'm gonna race my family boat

  13. #11
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    additionally those (disclaimer, ive never seen a compressor map for those turbos) turbos are likely too small for your engine. They look like about 60 mm inducer compressors...which are great for a "stock" N/A ~350 hp marine 454. But running those on your 509 will have you running off the right end (choke point) of the compressor map quickly. Having said that if you are just cruising and got the set up for a good price just run it...and it will make good power......but (as others have said as well) there will be ALOT left in it by switching to blow through and getting properly sized turbos for your application.....all depends on what your priorities are.
    Last edited by SS496; 03-18-2016 at 07:50 AM.

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    This is what has kept me from using my RayJays on my 540. It is just so far over the surge line according to my calculations (which could be very incorrect) I am afraid the back pressure would just be too much.

  15. #13
    Member NY CVX-20's Avatar
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    Thank you for the replies. I think for the sake of using this engine I will stick with the draw thru setup this year, then piece together a blow thru system over the winter -I'm basically a Carb away from having a complete draw thru kit. With that being said, I want to be confident that the system I currently have will work with my engine. I found a thread from 2009 ( http://www.performanceboats.com/gn7-...ed-help-2.html ) that said that the Rayjays compressor map is identical to the "AiResearch T04b with a V1/V2 compressor". If this is true, and my goal for this year is to have a low boost pump gas set up, are these turbos up to the task?

    I'm learning as I go here so if my thinking is wrong please correct me. I used the logic on post #18 of the aforementioned thread plus the charts from my "Turbochargers" book by Hugh Macinnes.

    If I use 10 lbs boost (complete guess with pump gas, more on that later) then my pressure ratio should be around 1.70 (14.2+10/14.2).
    Then I take my N/A CFM x Density Ratio (numbers taken from book) 600 x 1.4? =840 CFM at 5000 RPM w/PR of 1.7
    840 x .069 = 57.96 to get lbs/min
    57.96/2 turbos = 28.98 lbs/min

    Shouldn't that put me in the 71% efficiency range? Of course that is assuming I can run 10lbs boost and I figured the math correctly! I should just stick with an N/A engine lol
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    Last edited by NY CVX-20; 03-22-2016 at 06:01 AM.
    1979 Glastron Carlson CVX-20, 460 jet w/diverter

    1972 Glastron Carlson CV-21, Twin Turbo 509 ( http://www.classicglastron.com/phpbb...hp?f=34&t=5596 )

    http://www.youtube.com/user/stanger311

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    the methodology I prefer is ~10 lbs/min to make 100 hp (really close based off research and personal experience)......so your 509 flows ~55 lbs/min N/A

    at a PR of 2 you will be at 110 lbs/min...yes this neglects the heating of the air...but with a compressor that is properly sized ( I consider that about 68-70% or higher operating range) this gets you closer than the uncertainty of your measurements and the uncertainty of plotting on the map.

    plotting 55 lbs/min at a PR of 2 puts you way out in the choke area.



    for a giggle check....perform your same math on a NA 350 hp 454....see where it puts you on the map....my bet is near the surge line...which is not where Banks would want the operating point to be.
    Last edited by SS496; 03-22-2016 at 07:12 AM.

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