Piston Alloy >The Quandary Continues
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Piston Alloy >The Quandary Continues

  1. #1
    Super Moderator HammerDown's Avatar
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    Question Piston Alloy >The Quandary Continues

    Mahle Piston Alloy Comparison
    4032 .................................................. ...2618
    High silicon........................................... ..No silicon
    Low expansion ..................................... High expansion
    Tighter piston-to-wall clearance...............More Piston-to-wall clearance needed
    Quiet Operation....................................Noise when cold
    Less ductile........................................... More ductile
    More stable & consistent..........................Higher resistance to detonation
    Longer life cycle......................................Shorter life cycles
    Harder............................................ .......Softer
    Even with it's shorter life, I would surmise for my NA lake/river runner the 2618 is the way to go...no?
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    gn7
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    You were able to determine this by looking at those facts? Do you know where TRW's and most SRP's fall in on this? First thing I always somebody who shoots down TRW's for anything other than being a little heavy is,... do you know the history and development of the TRW piston? Who all was involved and what they but those development pistons thru. Never judge a piston just by the info you posted. Where did you get the info showing Mahle using 4032?



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    Super Moderator HammerDown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    You were able to determine this by looking at those facts? Do you know where TRW's and most SRP's fall in on this? First thing I always somebody who shoots down TRW's for anything other than being a little heavy is,... do you know the history and development of the TRW piston? Who all was involved and what they but those development pistons thru. Never judge a piston just by the info you posted. Where did you get the info showing Mahle using 4032?
    Sorry, I should have mentioned that info was from a Car Craft site where Mahle explaned the distinct differences between their 4032 and 2618 alloys.
    I find the whole alloy thing interesting in learning what may apply to my needs.
    I've also read where if a high silicone4032 developed a crack could continue to shatter where as if the low silicone 2681 were to develop a crack it probably wouldn't spread.
    I personally never shot down TRW, they were in my 468.
    http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...son/index.html

    "4032 is a high-silicon, low-expansion alloy. Pistons made from this alloy can be installed with tighter piston to bore clearance, resulting in a tighter seal with less noise. 4032 is a more stable alloy, so it will retain characteristics such as ring groove integrity, for longer life cycle applications. Relative to 2618, 4032 is a less ductile alloy, making it less forgiving when used with boosted and/or nitrous applications.

    The majority of Mahle forged PowerPak kits are made with 4032 alloy and require no additional piston-bore clearance. Mahle pistons are perfectly engineered to allow for the proper clearances assuming normal operation. For example, Mahle pistons for a small block engine will provide proper .0025"-.0030" clearances--right from the box.

    2618 is a low-silicon, high-expansion alloy that is used for extreme-duty racing applications such as NASCAR, ALMS, etc. Due to its high-expansion characteristic, this alloy is engineered with additional piston to bore clearance. At the start of a cold engine, the pistons expanding process can be heard and is commonly referred to as the "piston slap". Once the engine warms up the noise subsides as the piston expands to its running clearance. 2618 is a more ductile alloy and grants higher tolerances with higher resistance to detonation. The forgiving characteristics allow for the most extreme conditions, but longevity is eventually negotiated after countless heat cycles.
    Mahle pistons are designed for specific applications with the alloy that is best suited for that particular application."
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    gn7
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    Actually, Mahle pistons, other than their 2618's, are forged from a propriatory alloy that is very close to 4032. Which why magazines and others refer to it as 4032. TRW's are forged from VM75 which is also very similar to 4032. When TRW first got into forging pistons back in the 60's they wanted to use Mahle's alloy thru a licensing deal but could never come to an agreement with Mahle. So they created there own different but very similar alloy, in a effort to match the characteristics, thermal expantion, hardness/wear/scuff, thermal strength, etc of the Mahle. If you read the last line in your post you'll see that YOU don't decide which material the piston is forged from, they do. You pick the piston, bore diameter, pin height, and compression and that piston is forged from what ever they feel is best for that piston. I believe you are only going to find the 2618 used in the high compression Pro series pistons. Same applies to SRP's. Flat and low domes are 4032, high compression deals are 2618.



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    I'd get an SRP.
    With that being said..I have no experience with Mahle. This is because the JE/ SRP stuff "ain't broke" so I ain't a fixin it.
    Wags

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    Quote Originally Posted by wagspe208 View Post
    I'd get an SRP.
    With that being said..I have no experience with Mahle. This is because the JE/ SRP stuff "ain't broke" so I ain't a fixin it.
    Wags
    +1 FWIW
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    ....... David 519 is 100% correct........

    Quote Originally Posted by fuelinmyveins82 View Post
    .....I think people forget that racing is supposed to fun. Losing shouldn't be discouraging it should motivate you work on your pile to make it faster.....

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    gn7
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    Before any one starts doubting Mahles, keepthis in mind. Mahle makes more pistons by lunch time than JE/SRP,Ross, Venolia, Arias combined make in a month. They were making pistons when Benz's still used drive chains. They supply Ferrari, Porshe, Benz, Lambo, and every other hi end manuf. in Europe. And JE has finnally got around to using the same technology Mahle been using for years, in the SRP side forged relief deals. They come phosphate and dry film coated out of the box, wiith rings, and their rings lands are ground and dead ass on. The pin is shorter, thicker, and strong as hell. I don't believe you can find a better piston for the price.



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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Before any one starts doubting Mahles, keepthis in mind. Mahle makes more pistons by lunch time than JE/SRP,Ross, Venolia, Arias combined make in a month. They were making pistons when Benz's still used drive chains. They supply Ferrari, Porshe, Benz, Lambo, and every other hi end manuf. in Europe. And JE has finnally got around to using the same technology Mahle been using for years, in the SRP side forged relief deals. They come phosphate and dry film coated out of the box, wiith rings, and their rings lands are ground and dead ass on. The pin is shorter, thicker, and strong as hell. I don't believe you can find a better piston for the price.
    I agree 100%


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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Before any one starts doubting Mahles, keepthis in mind. Mahle makes more pistons by lunch time than JE/SRP,Ross, Venolia, Arias combined make in a month. They were making pistons when Benz's still used drive chains. They supply Ferrari, Porshe, Benz, Lambo, and every other hi end manuf. in Europe. And JE has finnally got around to using the same technology Mahle been using for years, in the SRP side forged relief deals. They come phosphate and dry film coated out of the box, wiith rings, and their rings lands are ground and dead ass on. The pin is shorter, thicker, and strong as hell. I don't believe you can find a better piston for the price.
    They also use round wire locks for the pins which are 100% better than spiro's, and they have nicely machined crowns and radiused valve pockets. I think their rings are low tension as well. Pretty stellar pistons and are offered as standard choice in my rotating assemblies.
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    Mahle pistons are spectacular. They don't offer lots of odd sizes, but if their stuff falls in the size you want, I say; go for it.

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    Super Moderator HammerDown's Avatar
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    Nice hearing the feedback about Mahle and this is what I wanted for a piston in the first place (or) SRP but.. guy in my hood said "I've seen Mahle and SRP come in shattered into little pieces because it's a 4032"
    Also, I was pushed towards a PROBE 18cc 100 over because it's a 2618 alloy. Am I really to believe Mahle or SRP doesn't offer a 18cc .100 over piston in 2618 for a BBC???
    I also was directed away from Clevite coated-H and was directed towards KING bearings.
    Beats me...on to bigger and better things.
    I put a stop on the build.

    BTW .100 aint happening
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Before any one starts doubting Mahles, keepthis in mind. Mahle makes more pistons by lunch time than JE/SRP,Ross, Venolia, Arias combined make in a month. They were making pistons when Benz's still used drive chains. They supply Ferrari, Porshe, Benz, Lambo, and every other hi end manuf. in Europe. And JE has finnally got around to using the same technology Mahle been using for years, in the SRP side forged relief deals. They come phosphate and dry film coated out of the box, wiith rings, and their rings lands are ground and dead ass on. The pin is shorter, thicker, and strong as hell. I don't believe you can find a better piston for the price.
    X 2. I got the chance to talk to one of Mahle engineers many years ago. We struck up a good conversation and after about 20 minutes he said I have something to show you. It was one of Grumpy's Pro stock truck pistons, I believe 4.195" bore, 2 ring piston, and something like 320 gms. It was a work of art. He explained that Mahle could keep a ring lan to .00001" and that even though 2 ring pistons had be used before in racing, because of ring flutter due to ring lan tolerances they were not effective because of flutter. Well Mahles were.

    At this time they were just breaking into the NC bunch and he said all they had to do was to get a Cup team to try a set and they would be sold. I would venture to say that Mahle is pretty popular down there in Warps part of the country.
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    thats called European shit boysthey have just about always been ahead of us in things like this.imo travis

    i say mahle pistons.screw the kings go clevite and screw the .100 and go .70 you will be happy,lol!!got to get another beverage .later travis

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    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by HammerDown View Post
    Nice hearing the feedback about Mahle and this is what I wanted for a piston in the first place (or) SRP but.. guy in my hood said "I've seen Mahle and SRP come in shattered into little pieces because it's a 4032"
    Also, I was pushed towards a PROBE 18cc 100 over because it's a 2618 alloy. Am I really to believe Mahle or SRP doesn't offer a 18cc .100 over piston in 2618 for a BBC???
    I also was directed away from Clevite coated-H and was directed towards KING bearings.
    Beats me...on to bigger and better things.
    I put a stop on the build.

    BTW .100 aint happening
    The "guy" in your hood is full BS. No Mahle and SRP do not offer a 18cc piston in 2618, for a reason. WHY? Just how hard do you think you can beat on a 10.5 cr motor to "shatter" a 4032. Never seen a 4032 shatter and I have beat the shit out of a few.



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