e85 with Enderle hat???
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 1 to 14 of 46

Thread:
e85 with Enderle hat???

  1. #1
    '74 Sanger ski hydro the General's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    413

    Default e85 with Enderle hat???

    Anybody ever run e85 on an Enderle hat?

    Would this work best with a system set up to run alky?

    Which barrel valve?
    87 Kustom Kraft open bow cruiser jet
    84 Eliminator Daytona jet
    74 Sanger ski hydro v-drive

  2. Remove Advertisements
    PerformanceBoats.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Just another Wannabe Wannabe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,190

    Default

    Yes, E85 turns out to be similar, with a little less GPM than an alcohol set-up.
    Stay away from the K valve as part throttle performance is really tricky there. Stay with the square b-valve and stay with a mild alcohol ramp in the b-valve.
    Just my opinion though . . .

  4. #3
    '74 Sanger ski hydro the General's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    413

    Default

    Is the square 'B' valve you're talking about usually used in a gas or alcohol set-up?

    If i were to try this, i'd be buying a used set-up and was wondering if anyone had tried it. I suppose the best thing for me to do, would be to call Enderle
    Last edited by the General; 03-20-2009 at 10:25 PM.
    87 Kustom Kraft open bow cruiser jet
    84 Eliminator Daytona jet
    74 Sanger ski hydro v-drive

  5. Remove Advertisements
    PerformanceBoats.com
    Advertisements
     

  6. #4
    Village Idiot fc-Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Peoria, AZ
    Posts
    3,402

    Default

    General, the square BV is used in with gas as well as basic alcohol setups. The K is often used in higher horsepower alcohol or nitro applications where higher amounts of fuel are required for the engine. The standard (or also generalized as the square) BV would probably be the best setup for E-85 if you want to run an Enderle hat. I think your idea of calling Enderle might be your best bet being that they might know which way to direct you for BV spools (as E-85 has different requirements than Gas or alky). They might be able to point you in the right direction for a spool, idle leakdown as well as what nozzle size might be best for your application. They might even be able to give you a starting point for a pill size depending on your pump flow also. You could also try some of the other injection wizards as they might know.

    One thing is for sure though. If you use info from one injection guy or company, stick with them (as each has their own way of figuring things). It makes it that much easier to call them back and give them info when you did what they said and did not try to mix in four other guys theories and suggestions.

    Anyway, that is my half cent (as my thoughts aren't even worth two cents).

    Paul

  7. #5
    Village Idiot fc-Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Peoria, AZ
    Posts
    3,402

    Default

    Here is a picture of an Enderle "Square" style BV



    Here is a picture of a "K" style BV



    Hopefully this help make it easier to recognize what we are talking about.

    Paul

  8. #6
    '74 Sanger ski hydro the General's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    413

    Default

    Thanks FC, I'm very interested in the idea of running e85 on my N/A 13:1 496 with an Enderle hat on my Victor tunnel ram.

    I have not purchased any injection parts yet... On my budget i'm gonna have to buy used and get the right parts the first time.

    I've been looking at racingjunk and Ebay.

    Anybody know of other sites that may have GOOD deals on a complete used Enderle hat set-up?
    87 Kustom Kraft open bow cruiser jet
    84 Eliminator Daytona jet
    74 Sanger ski hydro v-drive

  9. #7
    Village Idiot fc-Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Peoria, AZ
    Posts
    3,402

    Default

    General, that should be a cool setup. Now one thing that I don't know about, and my need to be answered by an injection expert is what size nozzles would be best for E85 in your application. I have heard a wide range of numbers of increased fuel flow from gas, so I am not exactly sure what would work. Also, I don't know what the proper idle leak-down would be and that is where a pro might really be able to help. If I were in your shoes I would do just as you are doing (looking to pick up a used complete setup) and get new screw in nozzles from a reputable company, that way you can get free info from them after buying nozzles from their recommendations.

    I am in the process of building a stack injected BBC to test gas compared to E85 and am going to go through the same process you are. Because of this I am really interested in what you find out. I plan on first testing it with 10-1 compression then swapping pistons to bump it to 13-1 compression and see what the numbers say. It should fun testing this stuff out as well as a great learning experience.

    Paul

  10. #8
    '74 Sanger ski hydro the General's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    413

    Default

    Are you gonna dyno the 2 different set-ups? That sounds like a pretty cool test
    87 Kustom Kraft open bow cruiser jet
    84 Eliminator Daytona jet
    74 Sanger ski hydro v-drive

  11. #9
    Gone
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Sparks, Nevada
    Posts
    1,824

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fc-Pilot View Post
    General, that should be a cool setup. Now one thing that I don't know about, and my need to be answered by an injection expert is what size nozzles would be best for E85 in your application. I have heard a wide range of numbers of increased fuel flow from gas, so I am not exactly sure what would work. Also, I don't know what the proper idle leak-down would be and that is where a pro might really be able to help. If I were in your shoes I would do just as you are doing (looking to pick up a used complete setup) and get new screw in nozzles from a reputable company, that way you can get free info from them after buying nozzles from their recommendations.

    I am in the process of building a stack injected BBC to test gas compared to E85 and am going to go through the same process you are. Because of this I am really interested in what you find out. I plan on first testing it with 10-1 compression then swapping pistons to bump it to 13-1 compression and see what the numbers say. It should fun testing this stuff out as well as a great learning experience.

    Paul
    Alright.....what injector do you have.....is it currently gas or alcohol....what nozzle....what pill....what cubic inch N/A motor are you going to run it on?

  12. #10
    Village Idiot fc-Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Peoria, AZ
    Posts
    3,402

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiat48 View Post
    Alright.....what injector do you have.....is it currently gas or alcohol....what nozzle....what pill....what cubic inch N/A motor are you going to run it on?
    It is a 489 ci (4.28" bore 4.25" stroke) Gen V big block with factory rectangle heads that have been ported (not the best job, but should be better than stock) with 10-1 compression (as well as another set of pistons that will be 13-1) and a .250 long rod. I am running a solid roller (I don't have the specs in front of me) with Manton pushrods, Crane gold rockers and stud girdles. The injection is a Crower unit with a Kinsler barrel valve (I have spools for both gas and alky, but thinking about contacting Kinsler about what would work best for E85), Kinsler dial-a-jet and diaphragm highspeed. I have a Hilborn pump and Kinsler 406 nozzles (which are a touch bigger than I want for gas, but should be a good starting point for E85). I have a hand full of different sets of nozzles for alky applications for testing Alky to E85.

    I was debating doing a build up on it and posting all the info as we tested stuff, but the more I think about it the more I don't want to. I don't want to have all the know-it-alls criticize my work that they didn't see me do.

    Paul

  13. #11
    Gone
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Sparks, Nevada
    Posts
    1,824

    Default

    The nozzles you have a handful of...are they Kinsler nozzles or Crowers?
    And pills....are they kinslers or crowers?
    PG 150 pump I pressume? (7 gpm)
    Last edited by Fiat48; 03-25-2009 at 09:49 PM.

  14. #12
    Village Idiot fc-Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Peoria, AZ
    Posts
    3,402

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by the General View Post
    Are you gonna dyno the 2 different set-ups? That sounds like a pretty cool test
    Yes, I plan on dyno-ing all three set-ups. Gas, E85 and alky with both compression ratios (just because I can). I am looking forward to gaining knowledge of how they each compare at each of the compression ratios.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiat48 View Post
    The nozzles you have a handful of...are they Kinsler nozzles or Crowers?
    And pills....are they kinslers or crowers?
    PG 150 pump I pressume? (7 gpm)
    I have Hilborn pills (flowed by Gene Adams to make sure they are right on the money) and a mix of Kinsler, Hilborn and Crower nozzles. I even have a set of Enderle nozzles, but they are in a set of Enderle stack injectors on another motor. (As you can see I am no respecter of manufacturers). I have a couple Hilborn -1 pumps as well as one -0. If I run the -1 it looks like I will need to run a pump sizer to get the system flow and pressure (as well as a usable pill size) where it needs to be. The Hilborn Pumps I have don't flow 7 GPMs but closer to 6.2 on Genes flow bench. I have purchased a few new pumps and had them flowed by Gene and the "actual" numbers were always shy of the "advertised" numbers. Anyway, it will be fun to see what comes out of this. Who knows, it may just stay together long enough to actually learn something.

    Paul

  15. #13
    Gone
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Sparks, Nevada
    Posts
    1,824

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fc-Pilot View Post
    Yes, I plan on dyno-ing all three set-ups. Gas, E85 and alky with both compression ratios (just because I can). I am looking forward to gaining knowledge of how they each compare at each of the compression ratios.



    I have Hilborn pills (flowed by Gene Adams to make sure they are right on the money) and a mix of Kinsler, Hilborn and Crower nozzles. I even have a set of Enderle nozzles, but they are in a set of Enderle stack injectors on another motor. (As you can see I am no respecter of manufacturers). I have a couple Hilborn -1 pumps as well as one -0. If I run the -1 it looks like I will need to run a pump sizer to get the system flow and pressure (as well as a usable pill size) where it needs to be. The Hilborn Pumps I have don't flow 7 GPMs but closer to 6.2 on Genes flow bench. I have purchased a few new pumps and had them flowed by Gene and the "actual" numbers were always shy of the "advertised" numbers. Anyway, it will be fun to see what comes out of this. Who knows, it may just stay together long enough to actually learn something.

    Paul
    New pump should flow 7 gpm or close. Many do 6.9. Now you can use the 6.2 on an unblown deal...but keep it away from a blower or at least remember to help it with a fatter pill and watch the overdrive.

    Kinsler pills flow approx 2 numbers more fuel due to the large radius he uses....as compared to Crower, Hilborn and Enderle. His nozzles are something else entirely. He keeps that rather secret. You can get an idea of what he has there by using tiny wire gauges or drill sizes to see what he is up to in a particular "numbered" nozzle. But that is NOT the whole story...that is ballpark as again...he uses large radius' which changes flow once again.
    That means if you measure a given kinsler nozzle that is marked say "1250"....and you measure that hole and find it measures .043.....that doesn't mean it flows like and Endlerle 43 nozzle. It flows more like a 45. Savy?

    While I am at it:
    Hilborn nozzles are lettered from 4a....to 24a. Those are leak % numbers...adding more the confusion. And...LOL...the leak % numbers vary...so an 18A nozzle might not leak 18%.

    Enderle is hole size. A 43 has a .043 hole.

    Anyway This would be my approach to adapting an alcohol setup to E85. I haven't done it.

    489 inches on alcohol:
    Hilborn calls for a 24A nozzle.
    Out of experience....I would use a 34 nozzle in enderle.
    Kinsler...LOL...I'd measure the hole. You get the idea.

    Since Enderle is easier to do....I will approach that way.
    Typical alcohol setup (ballpark) for 489 inches....I would have 34 nozzles,
    a 130 main jet (assuming sea level), block off the high speed, and since you have a secondary jet can in that setup (part throttle operation bleed off) I would leave the secondary alone as is. But no pill in it. Just the spring and the poppet.
    I'd leak the barrel at 20% and then adjust after starting. That is not a die hard number...18 to 22....fine. It is just so you have a ballpark to get the engine started.

    That tune up right there it will run....and run good on alcohol...because alcohol is so forgiving.
    Alcohol has a max power tune ratio of 5-6 to 1.
    ___________________________________________

    E85 as I read has a max power ratio of 6.975 to 1

    Since that tune up is not that far from a known alcohol tune up...here is how I would approach.

    Since E85 needs about 16.2% less fuel than alcohol does then all I would need to do is shrink my alcohol tune up that percentage.

    Alcohol nozzle size = 34 which equals .000908 sq inches of area x 8 for a total of .007264.
    Reduce nozzle size total area 16.2% which is .0011767 for a new total area nozzle of .0060873 divided by 8 nozzle = .0007609....which is close to the area of a 31 nozzle (.000755).

    So a 31 nozzle (or equivalent) goes in.

    Main jet:
    130 main jet for the alcohol deal area is .013273
    I would INCREASE that area 16.2% which is .0021236. for a new total area of
    .0153966 which is close to a 140 (.015394).

    So a 140 main jet goes in.
    Since the fuel rate is so close to alcohol...I would just use the alcohol spool.

    If I was gonna use a 6.2 pump....I'd put 10 in the main jet...just to be sure.

    Fire it up...lean the barrell till you have just the slightest hesitation when the throttle is yanked open....and fatten it 2 flats. Tune from there.

    PS: Compression is power. Put in what you can.
    Oh and...when you leak the barrell on the bench...you cap off the secondary. Just turn the can around backwards which will plug it off.
    Last edited by Fiat48; 03-25-2009 at 11:57 PM.

  16. #14
    Village Idiot fc-Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Peoria, AZ
    Posts
    3,402

    Default

    Fiat, thanks for the info. I will compare it to the info that I have and see how close they are. I have seen some different numbers thrown around about optimum AFR for E85. I have seen everything from 6.9 to 8.1 for max power. I will have a fuel flow meter on it so we should get an idea of where it will be. But starting off will be shooting from the hip. It will be interesting seeing where the barrel valve leakdown will be as I have yet to see any numbers for that.

    Paul

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Quick Reply Quick Reply

Register Now

Please enter the name by which you would like to log-in and be known on this site.

Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Tags for this Thread

Digg This Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
 

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95