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Need help on BBF

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    Member 67hallett's Avatar
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    Default Need help on BBF

    Ok I have a 460 d1ve block .030 over with two bad pistons. Fresh D3ve a2a heads ported with cobra jet size valves, modified with screw in studs and guide plates running roller rockers. Also has luntai 564 lift cam. Also have 1970 429 all stock long block, with flat top pistons and d0ve heads. I'm trying to put a engine together on the cheap just so I can get the boat in the water. Here are the options I have come up with but have questions about them or if they will work, also open to suggestions.

    Option 1-put d3ve heads on 429 short block. I wasn't sure if the stock 429 piston valve reliefs will clear the bigger intake valves, Also would like to know what compression ratio would be with this combo.

    Option 2-Will the stock 429 rockers have enough room to take the lunati cam with out binding.

    Also the 460 balncer has a pulley riveted to the front of it to drive the alternator belt. Can I use this balancer on the 429. Thanks guys for the help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 67hallett View Post
    Ok I have a 460 d1ve block .030 over with two bad pistons. Fresh D3ve a2a heads ported with cobra jet size valves, modified with screw in studs and guide plates running roller rockers. Also has luntai 564 lift cam. Also have 1970 429 all stock long block, with flat top pistons and d0ve heads. I'm trying to put a engine together on the cheap just so I can get the boat in the water. Here are the options I have come up with but have questions about them or if they will work, also open to suggestions.

    Option 1-put d3ve heads on 429 short block. I wasn't sure if the stock 429 piston valve reliefs will clear the bigger intake valves, Also would like to know what compression ratio would be with this combo.

    Option 2-Will the stock 429 rockers have enough room to take the lunati cam with out binding.

    Also the 460 balncer has a pulley riveted to the front of it to drive the alternator belt. Can I use this balancer on the 429. Thanks guys for the help.
    Option 1: the D3VE [95cc] heads on a 429 will make about 8.5 to 9 to 1 C/R depending on deck clearance and the stock 429 valve reliefs will not clear, unless someone has made them bigger...Clay the assembly, only way to tell for sure. Option 2: don't know exactly what rockers you have. If they are the cast shouldered ones used on the positive stop studs [rather than the boltdown fulcrums] they will not take too much lift and will not tolerate too much spring press as they are cast and relativly soft. You are prob. pushing the limits at .564" lift. Try the stamped steel rockers with the sled fulcrums and a BBC stud. [nonshouldered] Don't forget guideplates/harded pushrods. Balancer: All 429-460 use a zero balanced harmonic balancer so it should work for you. If you have a late model crank [3Y] it will use the "cookie cutter" counterweighted spacer, that is used for externally balanced cranks.

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    www.highflowdynamics.com LakesOnly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 67hallett View Post
    Ok I have a 460 d1ve block .030 over with two bad pistons. Fresh D3ve a2a heads ported with cobra jet size valves, modified with screw in studs and guide plates running roller rockers. Also has luntai 564 lift cam. Also have 1970 429 all stock long block, with flat top pistons and d0ve heads. I'm trying to put a engine together on the cheap just so I can get the boat in the water. Here are the options I have come up with but have questions about them or if they will work, also open to suggestions.

    Option 1-put d3ve heads on 429 short block. I wasn't sure if the stock 429 piston valve reliefs will clear the bigger intake valves, Also would like to know what compression ratio would be with this combo.

    Option 2-Will the stock 429 rockers have enough room to take the lunati cam with out binding.

    Also the 460 balancer has a pulley riveted to the front of it to drive the alternator belt. Can I use this balancer on the 429. Thanks guys for the help.
    What 058 said is good and wise; it's always good to check.

    I feel that the D3VE-headed top end will clear the OEM flat tops no problem, because the valves in the D3VE head are positioned 0.100" higher in the chamber than the 1970 429 D0VE heads. Therefore, if valve-to-piston clearance is not an issue with the D3VE heads on the D1VE block then it is not likely that it will be a problem with the D0VE-A 1970 429 (whose heads have the valves 0.100" closer to the pistons than your D3VE heads). Further, I have successfully been running a 460 with dome top pistons (std valve pockets), D3VE heads with 2.25 intake valves, and a 0.565 lift cam...works for me. All combos are different, of course, but we've done a lot of D3VE-headed, flat top pistoned 460's and V-to-P has never been an issue.

    That being said, I'm not so certain that pushing the 40-year old, heavy cast flat top 1970 429 pistons past 6000 rpm is a great idea. 058 can tell you more about that one. But if the cylinder bores are not totally worn and it's a budget build that you need, this combo can run strong for a long time provided it is not abused and the shortblock is in good shape. Change the timing chain while you're in there.

    Stock 429 rockers??? Use the roller rocker valve train that is on the D3VE heads.

    All 429/460 balancers are zero-balanced and may be swapped from any 385 Series engine to another. The rotating assy differences between the internally-balanced and externally-balanced 460 engines are in the flex plate and snout spacer...but all C8VE (1968), C9VE (1969), D0VE (1970) and D1VE (1970-1978) blocked engines are internally balanced from the factory so swapping rotating assy's accessory parts between your particular engines should be a non-issue.

    LO
    Last edited by LakesOnly; 03-17-2009 at 11:22 PM.
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    Thanks for the info. I was only thinking of using the stock 429 rockers if i could not put the d3 heads on the 429. If i used roller rockers with guide plates on the d0ve heads, wouldn't have to have the rocker stud bosses machined down the same thickness as the guide plates to make everything work correctly. Or can a guy just bolt on guide lates with bbc studs on dove heads and it will work with out longer push rods.

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    www.highflowdynamics.com LakesOnly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 67hallett View Post
    If i used roller rockers with guide plates on the d0ve heads, wouldn't I have to have the rocker stud bosses machined down the same thickness as the guide plates to make everything work correctly?
    In the 80+ years of 460 experience between me and my two biz partners, we have never had to mill the D0VE stud bosses further down in order to compensate for the addtion of guideplates when installing a roller rocker valve train. Whether or not that modification is really necessary is more of a clearance issue and has no effect on geometry, etc. Someone may find the modification necessary with certain rocker arm brands combined with OEM valve spring installed height, etc. I doubt that you will have this clearance issue since your camshaft probably uses a valve spring that calls out a greater installed height (1.900") than the OEM valve spring height (1.820).* If my assumption about your installed hight is correct and you are not using a Harland-Sharp roller rocker, then you ought to clear fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by 67hallett View Post
    Or can a guy just bolt on guide plates with bbc studs on dove heads and it will work with out longer push rods.
    Whether or not the D0VE head's guide bosses have been milled has nothing to do with proper pushrod length or correct valve train geometry; it is simply a clearance issue. Meaning, if you can establish proper geometery (and thereby correct pushrod length) without experiencing clearance issues at the bottom of the rocker body's trunnion radius, then you're fine (you have good geometry and good clearance).

    Oh, by the way, Ford 460's usually need a 1.900" BBF rocker arm stud, not the BBC 1.750" which almost always proves to be too short in the Ford engine. And so another nice thing about not milling down the guide bosses 0.100" unless necessary is that you have, in effect, "lengthened" that BBC stud by 0.100" and now it just might be long enough to use (depending on parts combination)....but I always go to the 1.900" studs.

    * Please note that for several reasons, you cannot use your current 0.564" lift cam with the D0VE head's OEM valve springs. If it is your intention to transfer only your roller rockers/pushrods/studs/guideplates from the grenaded engine onto a BONE STOCK 1970 429 CAM & SPRINGS, then proper setup may require some changes but I can post a recommendation if you are doing this...I'll need to know your rocker arm brand, current pushrod length(s), and installed valve spring height of the grenaded engine. Setup won't likely be perfect from over the internet but ought to be plenty adequate for your budget-minded approach in this stock-build application.

    LO
    Last edited by LakesOnly; 03-18-2009 at 09:09 AM.
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    I agree. I have never understood the whole machining the stud for guide plates thing. Same goes for the small blocks. I think it all got start with chevies because the boss isn't flat and has to be machined for guide plates. Any one that tells you that you have to do it for geometery is wrong. Likes said, if you don't need it for clearence, then it only make your studs sit higher, and more thread engagement on the nut



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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    I agree. I have never understood the whole machining the stud for guide plates thing. Same goes for the small blocks. I think it all got start with chevies because the boss isn't flat and has to be machined for guide plates. Any one that tells you that you have to do it for geometery is wrong. Likes said, if you don't need it for clearence, then it only make your studs sit higher, and more thread engagement on the nut
    FWIW. I have ran the 429 scj and never needed to cut stud bosses! I did however run crane "gold Rollers" for a BBC and re-set P/R length. Yes I knew that the rocker ratio went from 1.73 to 1.70 and cammed accordingly. And the dove-c head will work but you need to degree cam for clearance! This is were clay comes in real handy. Also being alittle light on the lift. M
    Last edited by ol guy; 04-21-2010 at 01:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LakesOnly View Post
    In the 80+ years of 460 experience between me and my two biz partners, we have never had to mill the D0VE stud bosses further down in order to compensate for the addtion of guideplates when installing a roller rocker valve train. Whether or not that modification is really necessary is more of a clearance issue and has no effect on geometry, etc. Someone may find the modification necessary with certain rocker arm brands combined with OEM valve spring installed height, etc. I doubt that you will have this clearance issue since your camshaft probably uses a valve spring that calls out a greater installed height (1.900") than the OEM valve spring height (1.820).* If my assumption about your installed hight is correct and you are not using a Harland-Sharp roller rocker, then you ought to clear fine.

    Whether or not the D0VE head's guide bosses have been milled has nothing to do with proper pushrod length or correct valve train geometry; it is simply a clearance issue. Meaning, if you can establish proper geometery (and thereby correct pushrod length) without experiencing clearance issues at the bottom of the rocker body's trunnion radius, then you're fine (you have good geometry and good clearance).

    Oh, by the way, Ford 460's usually need a 1.900" BBF rocker arm stud, not the BBC 1.750" which almost always proves to be too short in the Ford engine. And so another nice thing about not milling down the guide bosses 0.100" unless necessary is that you have, in effect, "lengthened" that BBC stud by 0.100" and now it just might be long enough to use (depending on parts combination)....but I always go to the 1.900" studs.

    * Please note that for several reasons, you cannot use your current 0.564" lift cam with the D0VE head's OEM valve springs. If it is your intention to transfer only your roller rockers/pushrods/studs/guideplates from the grenaded engine onto a BONE STOCK 1970 429 CAM & SPRINGS, then proper setup may require some changes but I can post a recommendation if you are doing this...I'll need to know your rocker arm brand, current pushrod length(s), and installed valve spring height of the grenaded engine. Setup won't likely be perfect from over the internet but ought to be plenty adequate for your budget-minded approach in this stock-build application.

    LO
    Paul, There was a time when the BBF rocker studs were not readily available so BBC was the only option unless you wanted to wait 2 to 4 weeks for a set from ARP or Manley. Thankfully those days are gone. I have used several sets of D0VE-C type heads without milling the stud bosses. On a couple of apps I had to use lash caps or longer pushrods to get enough rocker/stud clearance to keep the rocker off the stud radius. Rocker geometry was a little less than ideal but presented no problems in many thousands of miles of use. The old wive's tale of having to mill the stud bosses came from the use of factory guide plates on the CJ/SCJ heads, those bosses were slightly shorter than the pass. car heads to compensate for the guide plate thickness. The Ford Muscle Parts book made the recommendations.

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    Ok i am trying to figure out the best combination. The only reason I thought of running my cam in the 429 with d0ve heads beacsue it has 10.5 compression, My thought was that a 429 with d3ve heads the compression may be to low for the cam. If I went with the d0ve heads I would plan on new springs and freshen up the stock valves if possible and then transfer the guide plates, studs and rockers over to the D0ve heads. Do you think 8.5 or slightly higher compression could work good with this cam if it will I will just use the D3ve heads. Do you think this combo could stay alive at 5500 RPM. The bad 460 with the fresh d3ve heads has harland sharp roller rockers, comp cam guide plates, 8.650" push rods with BBC rocker studs not sure on installed height on springs. I will try to find the paper work. I also have a set of stock length hardend 8.550" pushrods if needed. Induction is edlebrock rpm intake with holley 850 dp. The boat is a 18 foot flat bottom, v-drive 18% gears with 12x16 two blade prop. Thanks for the great knowledge and help.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 058 View Post
    Paul, There was a time when the BBF rocker studs were not readily available so BBC was the only option unless you wanted to wait 2 to 4 weeks for a set from ARP or Manley. Thankfully those days are gone. I have used several sets of D0VE-C type heads without milling the stud bosses. On a couple of apps I had to use lash caps or longer pushrods to get enough rocker/stud clearance to keep the rocker off the stud radius. Rocker geometry was a little less than ideal but presented no problems in many thousands of miles of use. The old wive's tale of having to mill the stud bosses came from the use of factory guide plates on the CJ/SCJ heads, those bosses were slightly shorter than the pass. car heads to compensate for the guide plate thickness. The Ford Muscle Parts book made the recommendations.
    Yeah, those days are still in the heads of many non-Ford enthusiasts...."you can't get nice parts for those engines," etc.

    And yes, I have done precisely the exact same thing when installing a roller rocker valve train onto a bone stock 429/460 valve train (eg, one with OEM installed valve spring heights): Just use 0.080" lash caps (for the roller tip side of the rocker) and an extra 0.050" of pushrod length (for the pushrod side of the rocker ) in order to prop the rocker up higher on the stud and elimnate clearance issues. Keeps geometry suitable for the application (0.050" [addt'l p/r length) x 1.7 (rocker arm ratio) = 0.85" [lash cap thickness] )

    Finally, here is the Ford Racing print that makes everyone think that they MUST cut down the guide bosses....or cut the D3VE bosses down way too far, which is not always the case.





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    Quote Originally Posted by 67hallett View Post
    Ok i am trying to figure out the best combination. The only reason I thought of running my cam in the 429 with d0ve heads beacsue it has 10.5 compression, My thought was that a 429 with d3ve heads the compression may be to low for the cam. If I went with the d0ve heads I would plan on new springs and...................
    I've been thinking about your situation, and have come to the following conclusion:

    If it were me, I would run the 1970 D0VE-A 429 longblock just as it is. It may not be a monster in your boat, but you will be in the water and have a good time at the lake. Other than a v-drive oil pan, headers and induction, any more that you build it up for hp, you are risking trouble.

    In the meanwhile, tear down your grenaded engine and build it up sick-like, just as you want it.

    LO
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    Quote Originally Posted by 67hallett View Post
    Ok i am trying to figure out the best combination. The only reason I thought of running my cam in the 429 with d0ve heads beacsue it has 10.5 compression, My thought was that a 429 with d3ve heads the compression may be to low for the cam. If I went with the d0ve heads I would plan on new springs and freshen up the stock valves if possible and then transfer the guide plates, studs and rockers over to the D0ve heads. Do you think 8.5 or slightly higher compression could work good with this cam if it will I will just use the D3ve heads. Do you think this combo could stay alive at 5500 RPM. The bad 460 with the fresh d3ve heads has harland sharp roller rockers, comp cam guide plates, 8.650" push rods with BBC rocker studs not sure on installed height on springs. I will try to find the paper work. I also have a set of stock length hardend 8.550" pushrods if needed. Induction is edlebrock rpm intake with holley 850 dp. The boat is a 18 foot flat bottom, v-drive 18% gears with 12x16 two blade prop. Thanks for the great knowledge and help.
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    The biggest hazard to your 429 is the stock cast pistons. Even limiting the engine to 5500 rpm will still be somewhat risky. When I assembled my Howard flat I used a 429 with a bajillion miles on it, came out of a 70 T-bird. Stuck a fresh set of D0VE-C heads on the untouched short block, a Weiand tunnel and 2 600 Holleys. A lumpy hyd. cam, a fresh oil pump and a Dooley 10 qt pan. I didn't want to invest alot of money in the boat as I wasn't sure I was going to keep it. I ran that engine for a couple of summers after deciding to keep the boat and build a proper engine [460] for it. The POS mule engine would spin the 11.5" x 15 Stellings prop 5800 rpms thru 22% gear. After thrashing that engine a couple of summers I pulled the engine when the new 460 was finished, tore the 429 down and found a small piece of the #8 piston skirt in the pan. Didn't seem to make any difference in the way the engine ran and there was no detectable vibration so no harm, no foul. For some reason I had more fun with that engine I guess because if it went south I was out practially nothing so I didn't worry about it and drove it like a rented mule. BTW it had the broached rods too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LakesOnly View Post
    I've been thinking about your situation, and have come to the following conclusion:

    If it were me, I would run the 1970 D0VE-A 429 longblock just as it is. It may not be a monster in your boat, but you will be in the water and have a good time at the lake. Other than a v-drive oil pan, headers and induction, any more that you build it up for hp, you are risking trouble.

    In the meanwhile, tear down your grenaded engine and build it up sick-like, just as you want it.

    LO
    I think your idea of using the stock 429 is a good one. I will put fresh rings and bearings in it, as i tore down already to inspect it. The cam that came out of it is pitted. Can you reccomend a nice cam for this engine that I will not have to modify the stock valve train to run. I plan on using the rpm intake and a 750 dp carb that i have from another project.

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