Standard tension vs. low tension rings
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 14 of 36

Thread:
Standard tension vs. low tension rings

  1. #1
    steelcomp was here
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    n/e TN
    Posts
    26,507

    Default Standard tension vs. low tension rings

    So I've always wondered...what's the difference between a standard tension ring with no gas ports, and a low tension ring that's in a ported piston? In a static condition, the low tension rings shine, with far less drag, but I've always wondered in a dynamic condition, do they actually have less drag?
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    PerformanceBoats.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Bostick Racing Engines six-oh-nine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    El Cajon, Ca.
    Posts
    1,063

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by steelcomp View Post
    So I've always wondered...what's the difference between a standard tension ring with no gas ports, and a low tension ring that's in a ported piston? In a static condition, the low tension rings shine, with far less drag, but I've always wondered in a dynamic condition, do they actually have less drag?
    Ported pistons only deal with the increased radial tension on the top piston ring.

    The only issue I have delt with is oil control problems associated with low tension oil rings. The nearest I could figure is that without the aid of some sort of vacuum on the crankcase the low tension ring didn't control oil as well and had some consumption/vapor issues. I tried both std and low tension oil rings and the hp result was the same on the dyno and in the application (off-road endurance type dealy-o) Also it didn't seem to matter whether it as a big dog 427 LS or 3.5 Honda V6 (both asperated and supercharged)... they were stinky out the breather and drank a little oil. Even tried a different ring package but retain the low tension (went from .062 .062 .187 to 1.2mm 1.5mm 3.0mm with a napier 2nd to try to help control the oil). Then went back to std tension which, with no other change (even honed the block the same and retained the same ring end gaps) made very much an improvement. In my opinion... on the dyno (chassis dyno for what it matters) it wasn't worth the effort. I'd say drag race... and/or with dry sump or vacuum pump (anything that pulls vacuum) then low tension is cool... otherwise std.

    I haven't tried the same back to back same engine tests on marine applications, but I would imagine that it would be somewhat simmular to that of the off road race applications... mid to upper rpm for extended periods and lots of throttle jockying in less than ideal operating conditions.

    I'm sure there are folks that have vast more knowledge in this area and say I'm out of my gord... but from what I've seen in the real world... not strictly what is observed on dyno sheets... this is my experience.
    The Bostick®

    Some people play hard to get... I play hard to want.

  4. #3
    steelcomp was here
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    n/e TN
    Posts
    26,507

    Default

    Mainly referring to top ring. Thanks for the input.
    My thought was that maybe since the ported piston/ring was only seeing pressure during combustion (and high cyl presure), that during the rest of the piston's travel there might be less friction and that might have some nano-benefit..
    Last edited by scott foxwell; 03-24-2009 at 08:06 AM.
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.

  5. Remove Advertisements
    PerformanceBoats.com
    Advertisements
     

  6. #4
    Cantard 71hallett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    snow bank
    Posts
    5,017

    Default

    I need to have a talk with GN7 and get back to you....I personaly have no clue
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    It would be a balmy 85* in Steel's shop if he would move a little faster

  7. #5
    gn7
    gn7 is offline
    Senior Member gn7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    25,975

    Default

    BITE ME Where you live they are all Hi Tension rings, because the 35* water you run in, the cylinders squeeze em down to the point the gaps close and then some Steel, to answer your question, my understanding is that they really only show a gain due to the reduced drag on the intake stroke.



    100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3

  8. #6
    Resident Ford Nut Sleeper CP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Diego County
    Posts
    10,075

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    BITE ME

    my understanding is that they really only show a gain due to the reduced drag on the intake stroke.
    For what it's worth I have the opportunity to talk to the guys from CP pistons at the track on Saturday. Crower had told me that's who he wants to order my new set of pistons from next year. Crower had suggested a replacing my "old" zero gap second ring with a medium tension ring with gas ported pistons. I think I was talking to Mike from CP and he liked that idea.

    If I recall correctly the medium tension rings reduce ring drag by several pounds ( I want to type a number ,but I don't want to be way off on it) In any-case I would think that reduced friction would help every time the pistons is moving up or down ?

    Sleeper CP
    Big Inch Ford lover

    "Dark Sarcasm"
    Going fast is only half the fun ... what you make go
    fast is the other half.
    " A Government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take away everything you have"

  9. #7
    gn7
    gn7 is offline
    Senior Member gn7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    25,975

    Default

    I think the reason they aren't that beneficial on the other strokes is because the ring is still pressure loaded on the exhaust, compression, and power strokes. Like Steel asked, how much do they help in a running engine compared to pulling them thru the cyl;inder with a fish scale? I remember when "L", Dykes, Head land rings were all the rage in two strokes. They would taper the hell out of the cylinder over time because they had almost no wall loading at the bottom and a ton at the top, on every trip. As far as zero gap rings, 1st or 2nd, I don't get them, never have, but that's just an OPINION



    100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3

  10. #8
    steelcomp was here
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    n/e TN
    Posts
    26,507

    Default

    So what about a ported piston/top ring on the intake stroke? If the ring has increased tension with pos. cyl pressure, would it work in the reverse on the intake stroke, where there may be negative pressure in the cyl? Would it have even less tension, and if so, what happens when you add some pos. crankcase pressure to that?
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.

  11. #9
    Cantard 71hallett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    snow bank
    Posts
    5,017

    Default

    Your on the right page Steel..unless your running a vac pump there will allways be crank case pressure...just some more than others which gets right back full circle to the rings.....btw what is so important about a second ring anyways. On a gapless ring what purpose does it serve? Wouldnt one good ring be better than two low tension rings? ....cylinder drag....rotating mass exc.?
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    It would be a balmy 85* in Steel's shop if he would move a little faster

  12. #10
    Senior Member Jim W's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Upstate NY, Canandaigua
    Posts
    629

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 71hallett View Post
    Your on the right page Steel..unless your running a vac pump there will allways be crank case pressure...just some more than others which gets right back full circle to the rings.....btw what is so important about a second ring anyways. On a gapless ring what purpose does it serve? Wouldnt one good ring be better than two low tension rings? ....cylinder drag....rotating mass exc.?

    About 10 years ago at the dirt track near me there was a guy winning almost every race in the street stock class. Pretty much everyone ran a 350 SBC with a specific Holley 2 bbl carb, untouched intake and heads, flat tappet cam and flat top pistons. Stock-stock-stock

    This guy had more HP than anyone else and you could hear him RPM past everyone else on the track. The motor was not a $25,000 super slick 2 bbl deal just a back yard motor. He constantly got torn down but always passed. Strong rumor was that he only ran a top ring and oil rings, no second ring.

    Jim
    GN7
    Do you guys ever read anything I post, or just go straight for the throat?


    Got it wet on 6/15/10-------->finally......



    E-85 I'm saving the world--->8 thumps at a time

  13. #11
    Cantard 71hallett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    snow bank
    Posts
    5,017

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim W View Post
    About 10 years ago at the dirt track near me there was a guy winning almost every race in the street stock class. Pretty much everyone ran a 350 SBC with a specific Holley 2 bbl carb, untouched intake and heads, flat tappet cam and flat top pistons. Stock-stock-stock

    This guy had more HP than anyone else and you could hear him RPM past everyone else on the track. The motor was not a $25,000 super slick 2 bbl deal just a back yard motor. He constantly got torn down but always passed. Strong rumor was that he only ran a top ring and oil rings, no second ring.

    Jim
    shoooosh!!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    It would be a balmy 85* in Steel's shop if he would move a little faster

  14. #12
    steelcomp was here
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    n/e TN
    Posts
    26,507

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 71hallett View Post
    shoooosh!!!!!

    My guess is the second ring is an attempt to help reduce crankcase contamination, but we've since learned that allowing a little blow by to get past the second ring only helps reduce top ring flutter. If the top ring is doing it's job, the second ring seems redundant. Everything I worked on as a kid (with two wheels) had only a top ring, and two cycles, not four. Seems that ring was doing double duty compared to a four stroke. I know...a little apples and oranges, but the point still remains...
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.

  15. #13
    ptz
    ptz is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    so ca
    Posts
    785

    Default

    aren't the nascar boy's running two rings ?

    on the street stock guy.. are they running alcohol ?
    or pump gas ?
    ...alcohol is mixed with castor bean oil ? similar to a two stroke ?
    two strokes run two rings.. some run only one..

    so, gas port the top ring.... run a good oil control ring .. and a little prope oxide... or some mtbe...and great cam timming......43 deg...and walla..
    out in front you go..

    LOL !
    sounds good on paper..

  16. #14
    Cantard 71hallett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    snow bank
    Posts
    5,017

    Default

    or you could gas port the oil ring.....not the top single ring....pull the ring tight on the way down...less drag on the way up....

    What is your feeling on this Steel?
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    It would be a balmy 85* in Steel's shop if he would move a little faster

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Quick Reply Quick Reply

Register Now

Please enter the name by which you would like to log-in and be known on this site.

Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Tags for this Thread

Digg This Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
 

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95