489 to 555/565, use existing parts or start from scratch?
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489 to 555/565, use existing parts or start from scratch?

  1. #1
    just a ski boat with bark Carnivalride's Avatar
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    Question 489 to 555/565, use existing parts or start from scratch?

    I'm sure some of you have done this before so I figured I'd ask and see what your opinions are.

    I currently have a pump gas 489 I built about 4 years ago when my budget was really tight and just couldn't justify swinging the Aftermarket big bore block. However the desire for more performance has been eating at me every since and I regret not buying the big bore block back then when I was buying all the other parts when it would have been the easiest and most economical to build a 555/565.

    As I see it right now I could use my crank and rods and some of the other parts like intake, pan starter etc.

    However besides the block and pistons I assume I'll need new +.300" tall lifters.

    My heads are AFR 305s with the cnc chamber option and some additional clean up work. The question is should I have these cut for 2.30" or 2.35" intake valves and have additional porting done or is that not really feasible and should I just add a new set of heads to the build price list?

    The goal was to still stay pump gas, spin around 7500-7600rpm max but have peak power around 6800-7000. I hope to make at least 850hp and would really hope to make closer to 900hp.

    I have to wonder at this point would I be better off selling my 489 and building the new bigger bore version from scratch or can I use enough parts from my current build to make it more financially feasible to use what I can from it?

    Any comments from guys who have done this?

    Thanks in advance.
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Carnivalride, you really need to find some other hobby. You have no talent for this boat thing
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    Some guy obnoxious001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carnivalride View Post
    I have to wonder at this point would I be better off selling my 489 and building the new bigger bore version from scratch or can I use enough parts from my current build to make it more financially feasible to use what I can from it?


    Thanks in advance.
    I think you may have hit on it, since you currently have a nice piece you can sell. Besides pistons and rings, you need to balance the assembly, and should have larger heads to support the larger cubic inches at those rpm levels. Probably means new pushrods, and you would be replacing lifters and cam as well.

    Buying new might cost a bit more, but crank and rods would be fresh.
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    Senior Member jockorace's Avatar
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    I agree with Barry. I would try to sell your engine while it is still in the boat to demonstrate its capabilities. Once it's pulled, it's just another BBC sitting on a stand. You've always had nice stuff, so should have no problem selling the 489. Jocko
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    Some guy obnoxious001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jockorace View Post
    I agree with Barry. I would try to sell your engine while it is still in the boat to demonstrate its capabilities. Once it's pulled, it's just another BBC sitting on a stand. You've always had nice stuff, so should have no problem selling the 489. Jocko
    That's the other thing, he still would have a running boat until the new engine is together, or the other one sells, whichever comes first.
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    just a ski boat with bark Carnivalride's Avatar
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    Thanks for your input guys. The idea of still having it running while I build a larger one does sound good.
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Carnivalride, you really need to find some other hobby. You have no talent for this boat thing
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    steelcomp was here
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    Basically you'll have to change everything except the crank and rods. With your heads and intake (with some upgrades) you could make 900hp with a 540 and not need to turn that kind of rpm unless you want to. RPM needs induction...the more displacement and rpm you want, the more induction you're going to need. Heads need a bigger valve which means additional portwork. Intake might need a little work as well. Bigger carbs, you can probably stay with an .842 lifter all though a .903 would be better. At least 7/16" push rods, probably new springs. Bottom end would be basic. I'd stick with the 4.25 stroke and bore depending on how big you want to go with displacement.
    Personally, I'd love to see a 532 for a deal like this. 4.6 bore, 4.0 stroke, about 11:1 for pump gas, smallish heads (320-330cc) tunnel ram...should be able to make 900hp and it would like the rpm.
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    just a ski boat with bark Carnivalride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott foxwell View Post
    Basically you'll have to change everything except the crank and rods. With your heads and intake (with some upgrades) you could make 900hp with a 540 and not need to turn that kind of rpm unless you want to. RPM needs induction...the more displacement and rpm you want, the more induction you're going to need. Heads need a bigger valve which means additional portwork. Intake might need a little work as well. Bigger carbs, you can probably stay with an .842 lifter all though a .903 would be better. At least 7/16" push rods, probably new springs. Bottom end would be basic. I'd stick with the 4.25 stroke and bore depending on how big you want to go with displacement.
    Personally, I'd love to see a 532 for a deal like this. 4.6 bore, 4.0 stroke, about 11:1 for pump gas, smallish heads (320-330cc) tunnel ram...should be able to make 900hp and it would like the rpm.
    Scott,

    My deal with rpm is that flats seem to run better with some rpm. As an example the current 489 makes peak power about 6500rpm but runs best ETs turning 7200-7300rpm. Once the flats start to free up they seem to be able to accelerate off the downside of the power curve (as long as it doesnít drop like a rock). They seem to be quicker leaving at higher engine rpm than leaving closer to peak torque and using gearing to get the same prop rpm. Itís been said many times on the forums that most racers turn about a 1000rpm past their engines peak power.

    Iím not stuck on a ďsetĒ rpm but I figured to make 900hp things might have to be turned up a bit. Maybe Iím all wet but it seems like a 565 turning 7500 might be easier on parts than your 532 example turning 8000. I know it will depend on the parts used and the combination but if we stuck to a tighter budget would the 565 last longer?


    Thanks for the reply.
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Carnivalride, you really need to find some other hobby. You have no talent for this boat thing
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    Distinguished Member David 519's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott foxwell View Post
    ..... I'd love to see a 532 for a deal like this. 4.6 bore, 4.0 stroke, about 11:1 for pump gas, smallish heads (320-330cc) tunnel ram...should be able to make 900hp and it would like the rpm.
    My next motor will likely be something almost exactly like that. My 427 +.060" SS motor in the Bezer is a race gas deal. Been thinking of yanking it apart, going with a 4.6" bore block, keeping the 3 3/4" crank, tuning up the heads a bit for a small roller cam and setting the CR around 10.5:1 so I don't have to deal with race gas. Should be able to make decent HP without killing the bank

    Quote Originally Posted by Carnivalride View Post
    Scott,

    My deal with rpm is that flats seem to run better with some rpm. As an example the current 489 makes peak power about 6500rpm but runs best ETs turning 7200-7300rpm. Once the flats start to free up they seem to be able to accelerate off the downside of the power curve (as long as it doesnít drop like a rock). They seem to be quicker leaving at higher engine rpm than leaving closer to peak torque and using gearing to get the same prop rpm. Itís been said many times on the forums that most racers turn about a 1000rpm past their engines peak power.

    Iím not stuck on a ďsetĒ rpm but I figured to make 900hp things might have to be turned up a bit. Maybe Iím all wet but it seems like a 565 turning 7500 might be easier on parts than your 532 example turning 8000. I know it will depend on the parts used and the combination but if we stuck to a tighter budget would the 565 last longer?


    Thanks for the reply.
    I've had the same experience with RPM in a flat as you've described; spin it past the power peak otherwise it's a turd. I really like a 565 but Scott's 532 suggestion would be cool too. I've tried the 4.5" stroke stuff and it would be a great choice in an IO, but like the slightly shorter stroke in a flat... Good luck Loren!!
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    ....... David 519 is 100% correct........

    Quote Originally Posted by fuelinmyveins82 View Post
    .....I think people forget that racing is supposed to fun. Losing shouldn't be discouraging it should motivate you work on your pile to make it faster.....
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    steelcomp was here
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carnivalride View Post
    Scott,

    My deal with rpm is that flats seem to run better with some rpm. As an example the current 489 makes peak power about 6500rpm but runs best ETs turning 7200-7300rpm. Once the flats start to free up they seem to be able to accelerate off the downside of the power curve (as long as it doesnít drop like a rock). They seem to be quicker leaving at higher engine rpm than leaving closer to peak torque and using gearing to get the same prop rpm. Itís been said many times on the forums that most racers turn about a 1000rpm past their engines peak power.

    Iím not stuck on a ďsetĒ rpm but I figured to make 900hp things might have to be turned up a bit. Maybe Iím all wet but it seems like a 565 turning 7500 might be easier on parts than your 532 example turning 8000. I know it will depend on the parts used and the combination but if we stuck to a tighter budget would the 565 last longer?


    Thanks for the reply.
    I agree that turning past peak power is where performance shines but I never suggested 8000 rpm. I've done two pump gas 532's in the last couple years and both were 800+ hp. ONe made 825 @ 6600, the other made 800 @ 6500. Both held power real well past peak. The first was still making over 800 @ 7500, the second 786 @ 7200. Both were hyd roller motors and I venture to say that with a TR and a little different solid roller we could see 900hp closer to 7000 and be very happy at 7500. No need to be hard on parts. I could see a 565 working in the same rpm range just making more power. I did a 10.2:1 pump gas 565 that made 922 @ 7000 and still climbing -with a single four and windage issues. We stopped the pull @ 7000 and called it good but I know that engine would hang on real well upstairs. It's all about induction. That 565 could be a 1K hp engine pretty easy with a TR and two carbs. Cost on any of these engines will be a wash, for all intents and purposes.
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    just a ski boat with bark Carnivalride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott foxwell View Post
    I agree that turning past peak power is where performance shines but I never suggested 8000 rpm. I've done two pump gas 532's in the last couple years and both were 800+ hp. ONe made 825 @ 6600, the other made 800 @ 6500. Both held power real well past peak. The first was still making over 800 @ 7500, the second 786 @ 7200. Both were hyd roller motors and I venture to say that with a TR and a little different solid roller we could see 900hp closer to 7000 and be very happy at 7500. No need to be hard on parts. I could see a 565 working in the same rpm range just making more power. I did a 10.2:1 pump gas 565 that made 922 @ 7000 and still climbing -with a single four and windage issues. We stopped the pull @ 7000 and called it good but I know that engine would hang on real well upstairs. It's all about induction. That 565 could be a 1K hp engine pretty easy with a TR and two carbs. Cost on any of these engines will be a wash, for all intents and purposes.
    Okay if cost is essentially a wash between a 532 and 565 what are the pros and cons? I assume the 565 will make more power and come in sooner but will have more windage issues than the 4" stroke 532? My guess is the r/s ration on the 532 will be better and it will be easier on the bores over time? What am I missing and if we stayed around the same budget how much power difference?
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Carnivalride, you really need to find some other hobby. You have no talent for this boat thing
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    steelcomp was here
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carnivalride View Post
    Okay if cost is essentially a wash between a 532 and 565 what are the pros and cons? I assume the 565 will make more power and come in sooner but will have more windage issues than the 4" stroke 532? My guess is the r/s ration on the 532 will be better and it will be easier on the bores over time? What am I missing and if we stayed around the same budget how much power difference?
    565 has more cubes, more power potential. The added stroke does bring a new challenge to the table but so what. Same "budget" probably another 50hp.
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
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    just a ski boat with bark Carnivalride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott foxwell View Post
    565 has more cubes, more power potential. The added stroke does bring a new challenge to the table but so what. Same "budget" probably another 50hp.
    What is the "new challenge to the table"? The additional cid, stroke and piston speed requiring considerably more air than the smaller 532 combination?

    If the displacement helps where do the diminishing returns come in? What about a tall deck 598? Or do the the extra cubic inches and stroke just use up the conventional head and not really gain much over the 565 other than more torque or the power coming in sooner?

    Thanks again
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Carnivalride, you really need to find some other hobby. You have no talent for this boat thing
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    Oklahoma Hot Boat Assn BeerBudget212's Avatar
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    Uh Oh, somebody must be creeping up on the KING.
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    Distinguished Member David 519's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carnivalride View Post
    .....What about a tall deck 598? Or do the the extra cubic inches and stroke just use up the conventional head and not really gain much over the 565 other than more torque or the power coming in sooner?.....
    The short answer to this is yes (with a bunch of caveats), you use up the head sooner and power is about the same but at a slightly lower RPM... or at least that's been my experience. In a flat, doing what we do, I'll take a 565 over a 598 almost anytime. That said, if I ran across a killer deal on a 4" stroke crank, I'd go that way in a heart beat. I'm talking "budget" NA here, throw a blower on it, everything changes... YMMV and so forth..
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    ....... David 519 is 100% correct........

    Quote Originally Posted by fuelinmyveins82 View Post
    .....I think people forget that racing is supposed to fun. Losing shouldn't be discouraging it should motivate you work on your pile to make it faster.....
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