Water/Meth injection and Hydrogen Peroxide
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Water/Meth injection and Hydrogen Peroxide

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    Or Seth, either one Budweiser's Avatar
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    Default Water/Meth injection and Hydrogen Peroxide

    If you're gonna spray water/meth anyway, can you mix Hydrogen Peroxide with Water and Methanol to introduce more oxygen into the combustion process, similar to the way N2O does? Seems the water may keep it from self ignition and the oxygen could react some of the methanol that may otherwise move the AFR richer than if it didn't have additional oxygen to react with.

    Last edited by Budweiser; 12-31-2016 at 11:57 AM.

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    Or Seth, either one Budweiser's Avatar
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    In high concentrations (less diluted in water) it's used as a rocket propellant on it's own, or used as an oxidizer with a fuel (like N2O). Why not turn water/meth injection into a power adder instead of only a knock reducer?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide
    Last edited by Budweiser; 12-31-2016 at 05:26 PM.

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    LP-25.com Infomaniac's Avatar
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    I came real close to building a peroxide rocket a few years ago. I needed help with the nozzle shape dimensions. None of the 3 reachable experts would help me. Would sell me the catalyst pack along with the nozzle though

    A peroxide rocket powered vehicle is my dream.

    its the perfect engine. performs exactly the same every time and no maintenance.

    Spray it onto a catalyst and it expands 150 times its volume as water vapor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infomaniac View Post
    I came real close to building a peroxide rocket a few years ago. I needed help with the nozzle shape dimensions. None of the 3 reachable experts would help me. Would sell me the catalyst pack along with the nozzle though

    A peroxide rocket powered vehicle is my dream.

    its the perfect engine. performs exactly the same every time and no maintenance.

    Spray it onto a catalyst and it expands 150 times its volume as water vapor.
    No offense intended but did you ever see the peroxide rocket cars in the late 70's early 80's running the quarter mile? I saw one run at O.C.I.R. one time and it was scary. I think NHRA banned them shortly after as being deemed unsafe??? They were running in the low 4's (unheard of then) Then shortly after I saw a poster of one wanting to take flight at the lights. All 4 tires 3" off the ground. Aireodynamics not up to the thrust those cars had. Thus NHRA said NO!!! Kinda looked like an F18 without wings. The guy that drove the car towed a trailer to carry his BALLS. Or an undersize helmet for his head. Later I heard that NHRA claimed it a bomb looking to go off. ?????????

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    Quote Originally Posted by ol guy View Post
    No offense intended but did you ever see the peroxide rocket cars in the late 70's early 80's running the quarter mile? I saw one run at O.C.I.R. one time and it was scary. I think NHRA banned them shortly after as being deemed unsafe??? They were running in the low 4's (unheard of then) Then shortly after I saw a poster of one wanting to take flight at the lights. All 4 tires 3" off the ground. Aireodynamics not up to the thrust those cars had. Thus NHRA said NO!!! Kinda looked like an F18 without wings. The guy that drove the car towed a trailer to carry his BALLS. Or an undersize helmet for his head. Later I heard that NHRA claimed it a bomb looking to go off. ?????????
    I saw them andi t's just like anything else, you eventually want more more more.

    NHRA didn't ban them. I've had many conversations with this man https://www.facebook.com/ky.michaelson?fref=ts he raced them back then still builds them and he was involved in the recent snake river canyon jump. They used a hot water rocket that I almost built one myself LOL I had everything I needed except a nozzle. The nozzle design is everything.

    The reason they quit running them is the peroxide was delivered in a special container. Vented lined container and one racer was hoarding them instead of returning them. The company supplying the 90% peroxide had enough and told them massive quantity orders only. The fuel became not available is the reason they stopped running them

    Today you can distill it yourself from 50% industrial grade or there is one source in the northwest that will sell it to you. It's tricky to handle because of the reaction that can occur if it comes in contact with the wrong metal.

    Theres no bomb because there is no combustion. It is the peroxide coming in contact with a metal that causes an exothermic reaction. its really amazing. just like anything else not understood like turbos for instance LOL
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    I saw a hydrogen peroxide car run at the drags a few times.
    It was bizzare because they just pushed it up to the line and it was dead quiet.
    Just some big braided lines going to the rocket motor.

    When he hit the button and launched that thing it made a deafening roar like if you threw a 4" valve open on a huge air tank.
    It actually blew a section of the track surface off at the start line and they told him not to bring that thing around anymore.

    Wow Ron, That distillation process sounds shady to me.

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    Or Seth, either one Budweiser's Avatar
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    What are your thoughts on using it with water/meth to inject into an engine?

    From what I've read, it's breakdown process (Thermal Decomposition)can be catalyzed or it can also break down with heat above it's boiling temperature of about 150ºC/302ºF. At which point it starts to thermally decompose... releases heat as one oxygen atom splits off to bond with another, which is then available to react with hydrocarbons in the combustion process.

    I figure, there might be a ratio of Hydrogen Peroxide, water, and Methanol that would add power without adding too much heat to combustion and inducing detonation. Or for that matter, taking too much heat out of the combustion process. Just a thought that crossed my mind and has been sitting in the back stewing for a bit.
    Last edited by Budweiser; 01-01-2017 at 03:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark55 View Post

    Wow Ron, That distillation process sounds shady to me.
    LOl that's how its done. Rocket grade peroxide is distilled by someone
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    Or Seth, either one Budweiser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infomaniac View Post
    I came real close to building a peroxide rocket a few years ago. I needed help with the nozzle shape dimensions. None of the 3 reachable experts would help me. Would sell me the catalyst pack along with the nozzle though

    A peroxide rocket powered vehicle is my dream.

    its the perfect engine. performs exactly the same every time and no maintenance.

    Spray it onto a catalyst and it expands 150 times its volume as water vapor.
    Here ya go.
    https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/nozzled.html

    Just math that all out, transpose it into a CAD program, e-mail it to someone with a CNC lathe, and viola! No?
    Last edited by Budweiser; 01-03-2017 at 12:07 PM.

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    I have some similar info. I think it's best to have someone that has actually built one for the same application make it without going through the trial and error of calculated vs actual.
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    Or Seth, either one Budweiser's Avatar
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    Some interesting stuff:

    A pound of Hydrogen Peroxide will release 1240 BTU when decomposed.

    At concentrations greater than +/- 70% in water, it's enough energy to convert to steam. Both, the water created by the decomposition and the water it's diluted in are heated to or beyond 212ºF. Presumably, at lower concentrations the decomposition leaves behind hot water... and of coarse, expels pure oxygen gas.

    Decomposed 98% Hydrogen Peroxide will create steam at over 1112ºF... Which makes a lot of sense given it's BTU release. One BTU is enough energy to raise one pound of water one degree F... 1240 BTU into a pound of water (and oxygen)... close enough for the girls I hang out with.

    For comparison, a pound of gasoline will release roughly 18,500 BTU.

    ETA... However, a pound of gasoline will also have to consume 14.7 pounds of air and heat it's resultant products. 1178 BTU per pound of air/fuel compared to 1240 BTU for hydrogen peroxide. Interesting.
    Last edited by Budweiser; 01-04-2017 at 12:23 PM.

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    So, this idea loosely ties into the stoich/max power thing. Maybe it's all hogwash and the product of an over imaginative mindset, but here's what I'd like to figure out...

    If a max power rich condition can be substituted with a stoich mixture and water to produce similar results in both detonation suppression and power production, it stands to reason that there could be a specific dilution of hydrogen peroxide that would release enough oxygen to react the extra fuel in a typically max power rich mixture and bring it to stoich, while also adding BTU to the combustion process through it's decomposition, and providing enough water to the process to balance and maximize all of the reactions. Obviously, it would have to be metered somehow.

    So, adding enough oxygen to liberate the BTU in the fuel that would otherwise not combust
    Add in the BTU of hydrogen peroxide decomposition
    Keep everything cool enough and maximize the process with the right amount of water.

    Should be a significant addition to power if it all math's out. And even if it does math out, there could be some reason I'm not aware of that would make it impractical or disastrous in practice. Should be fun to figure out. It'll haunt me if I don't, another thing in the back of my mind.

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