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BBC after market heads

  1. #15
    Senior Member TexasJet's Avatar
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    How refreshing, and unique, to see to knowledgeable people have a difference of opinion on this forum and not come to verbal blows. Professional all the way. Congrats to both of you.

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  3. #16
    steelcomp was here
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    Quote Originally Posted by CycloneRacing View Post
    Well it appears you build very nice stuff and are well educated. I know that we at Edelbrock have always ran the products we manufacture on our dyno's and flow benches against competitors. Brodix being one of them. With all of our tests we seem to always be right there with them if not better.

    Those Edelbrock heads you ported look like they turned out nice. The flow numbers are impressive as well. What bench did you use for flow testing? We appreciate the business and hope you will use more of our products.

    You say the aluminum is better in a Brodix head. The aluminum we are using in every Edelbrock head is A-356 and heat treated to T6 specifications. The race heads are now HIpped which as I am sure you know make them very strong. We have been told numerous times by reputable head porters they are similar to billet.
    I honestly cannot remember Edelbrock having issues with soft heads, seats and guides moving. Maybe we did a long time ago and then built our own foundry so we could control the quality of the castings.

    Now you mention that any head patterned after the original GM casting is going to have rocker boss issues and possibly break them. I agree those can break but the only time we have seen this with our heads (and it is very rare) is when someone used our street type head in a race application. The Edelbrock street style head is not designed for high lift/Race applications and when used in such a way can do something like coil bind the spring and cause the rocker bosses (among other things) to break. Besides those instances honestly we don't really have that issue. (To my knowledge)
    We also send our heads to Jesel and T&D so they have rocker assemblies readily available. I am sure you agree a shaft style rocker assembly is truly the right way to setup your high HP valve train.


    Regarding our foundries yes we do castings for other manufacturers. AFR being one of many. They all came to use because they feel we have the best castings on the market and can solve allot of issues they are having with their current foundries. We use our same casting techniques in their heads as we do ours.

    I agree AFR makes very nice cylinder heads. Those are always an excellent choice. I will have to politely disagree with you saying that their heads are a world away from ours. I do know that our heads test right with theirs.

    As I stated before, We appreciate the business and hope you will use more of our Edelbrock products.

    Again, This is JMO
    Thanks for your response and compliments. Flow numbers are off a SF600.

    Curious how long have you been with Edelbrock? The "soft" issues, at least with the 24* BB Chev heads, go back several years and are pretty well known among most of the engine builders and head porters I know or talk to. That's why they had to come up with the HIP process...something no one else seems to feel the need to offer. Just saying...

    I don't recommend shaft systems for anything but all out race apps. IMO it's not necessary, especially with hyd rollers. A quality stud mount rocker with a girdle and proper geometry is a very solid, reliable valve train. I did a 532 BBC, pump gas, .768 hyd roller that went 7800 on the dyno with no issues, stud mounts and girdles. If it was a solid roller I would have recommended shafts.

    I use Edelbrock intakes almost exclusively and...btw... since I have you on the line...

    As far as the OP's question, I'd still go with the Brodix...no offense. I'll also throw this at you since you're representing Edelbrock and this is a marine forum...food for thought; the hard anno option for any marine cylinder head is almost a complete waste of time and I never recommend it to a customer. IMO it's a waste of money. The main corrosion problem I see in marine engines occurs between the deck and block or intake and head, around the water passages. Brackish or salt water will seep between the gasket(s) and head/intake/block surfaces and corrode the deck of the heads. It doesn't take a lot of corrosion there to damage a set of otherwise perfectly good heads to the point of needing welding. You can hard anno a head till the cows come home but once you surface/machine the heads, IMO it's a waste of time. I agree that internally, the anno helps but very seldom is there a problem internally in the water jackets that will render a head useless. IMO, for hard anno th be effective and worth the extra cost, the heads need to be fully machined, anno'd, then assembled with seats and guides, valve job'd, etc. Again, just food for thought.
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  4. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott foxwell View Post
    Thanks for your response and compliments. Flow numbers are off a SF600.

    Curious how long have you been with Edelbrock? The "soft" issues, at least with the 24* BB Chev heads, go back several years and are pretty well known among most of the engine builders and head porters I know or talk to. That's why they had to come up with the HIP process...something no one else seems to feel the need to offer. Just saying...

    I don't recommend shaft systems for anything but all out race apps. IMO it's not necessary, especially with hyd rollers. A quality stud mount rocker with a girdle and proper geometry is a very solid, reliable valve train. I did a 532 BBC, pump gas, .768 hyd roller that went 7800 on the dyno with no issues, stud mounts and girdles. If it was a solid roller I would have recommended shafts.

    I use Edelbrock intakes almost exclusively and...btw... since I have you on the line...

    As far as the OP's question, I'd still go with the Brodix...no offense. I'll also throw this at you since you're representing Edelbrock and this is a marine forum...food for thought; the hard anno option for any marine cylinder head is almost a complete waste of time and I never recommend it to a customer. IMO it's a waste of money. The main corrosion problem I see in marine engines occurs between the deck and block or intake and head, around the water passages. Brackish or salt water will seep between the gasket(s) and head/intake/block surfaces and corrode the deck of the heads. It doesn't take a lot of corrosion there to damage a set of otherwise perfectly good heads to the point of needing welding. You can hard anno a head till the cows come home but once you surface/machine the heads, IMO it's a waste of time. I agree that internally, the anno helps but very seldom is there a problem internally in the water jackets that will render a head useless. IMO, for hard anno th be effective and worth the extra cost, the heads need to be fully machined, anno'd, then assembled with seats and guides, valve job'd, etc. Again, just food for thought.
    I have been with Edelbrock for 15+ years. I don't really know of any soft head issues we have had. I asked around and nobody seems to remember or recall that issue either. We use the HIP process to make our heads stronger than anyone else on the market. As I said talk with reputable/well known head porters/Engine Builders and they will tell you the same thing. Porters/Builders like Frankenstein, RFD, Vic Hill, BES, Ultra Pro, Goodwin Competition, Total Engine Airflow, Shaut Racing Heads, West Coast Racing Cylinder Heads, MBE, QMP, Mercury Racing, Teague Custom Marine all use our castings and prefer to port on our HIpped versions over the competitions regular heat treated heads. Those are just a few I thought of off the top of my head that we do business with on an almost daily basis.
    You say that nobody else needs to use the HIpp process. That is true nobody needs to use it however it will make their heads much stronger and our customers where only some are listed above tell us time and time again they prefer it.

    I agree shaft mounted rockers are not necessary on lower HP builds. Anything race related should have a shaft system and that is why Jesel as well as T&D have systems for almost all of our heads. Generally a hydraulic roller setup would not need a shaft system and our heads with rocker studs handle the job just fine.
    7800 RPM out of a BBC with a hydraulic roller cam is impressive. What Hydraulic Roller lifters were you using that didn't float the vales at that RPM? Titanium Valves?

    I appreciate the kind words on our intakes. Those are what started the company and help us grow to this day. It seems like from the dirt to the asphalt to the water our intakes dominate racing. We hope you will keep using them.

    Well Superflow makes good test equipment and that is why we use it. Your numbers must be valid but I am curious what thy would make on our in house flow bench. Our in-house flow benches and dyno's are very tough to make high flow numbers and HP on. That is why we pride ourselves on our flow/HP numbers that they are actual numbers. We have had reputable head porters and engine builders tell us what their head flowed or HP their engine made and wen we get their head or engine in house it never makes the number they said it did. We joke and say it must be the Mississippi river correction factor they are using.

    No offense taken on your suggestion to OP. On the contrary I will politely suggest our Edelbrock stuff to him. We are allowed to have a difference of opinion and OP can make his own decision.
    We appreciate any and all feedback on our products. I will send your hard anodizing/machining suggestion to our engineering and manufacturing staff.

    If you are going to be at the PRI show feel free to stop by our booth or if you are in Southern, CA feel free to come in for a tour of our facility. Maybe I can change your mind on our heads in person.

    Thanks Troy
    Last edited by CycloneRacing; 09-15-2017 at 11:58 AM.

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  6. #18
    Senior Member orngxtc's Avatar
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    To all that have provided info. Thank you. I never anticipated this to be a thread of who is better. I appreciate all the info that has been provided. It will definitely benefit the build I am doing. Scott it is always nice to see you around here. You have been pretty quiet since ol GN7 passed. I will call Chris on Monday and see where things go.
    Thanks again to all.
    John

  7. #19
    steelcomp was here
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    Quote Originally Posted by CycloneRacing View Post
    I have been with Edelbrock for 15+ years. I don't really know of any soft head issues we have had. I asked around and nobody seems to remember or recall that issue either. We use the HIP process to make our heads stronger than anyone else on the market. As I said talk with reputable/well known head porters/Engine Builders and they will tell you the same thing. Porters/Builders like Frankenstein, RFD, Vic Hill, BES, Ultra Pro, Goodwin Competition, Total Engine Airflow, Shaut Racing Heads, West Coast Racing Cylinder Heads, MBE, QMP, Mercury Racing, Teague Custom Marine all use our castings and prefer to port on our HIpped versions over the competitions regular heat treated heads. Those are just a few I thought of off the top of my head that we do business with on an almost daily basis.
    You say that nobody else needs to use the HIpp process. That is true nobody needs to use it however it will make their heads much stronger and our customers where only some are listed above tell us time and time again they prefer it.

    I agree shaft mounted rockers are not necessary on lower HP builds. Anything race related should have a shaft system and that is why Jesel as well as T&D have systems for almost all of our heads. Generally a hydraulic roller setup would not need a shaft system and our heads with rocker studs handle the job just fine.
    7800 RPM out of a BBC with a hydraulic roller cam is impressive. What Hydraulic Roller lifters were you using that didn't float the vales at that RPM? Titanium Valves?

    I appreciate the kind words on our intakes. Those are what started the company and help us grow to this day. It seems like from the dirt to the asphalt to the water our intakes dominate racing. We hope you will keep using them.

    Well Superflow makes good test equipment and that is why we use it. Your numbers must be valid but I am curious what thy would make on our in house flow bench. Our in-house flow benches and dyno's are very tough to make high flow numbers and HP on. That is why we pride ourselves on our flow/HP numbers that they are actual numbers. We have had reputable head porters and engine builders tell us what their head flowed or HP their engine made and wen we get their head or engine in house it never makes the number they said it did. We joke and say it must be the Mississippi river correction factor they are using.

    No offense taken on your suggestion to OP. On the contrary I will politely suggest our Edelbrock stuff to him. We are allowed to have a difference of opinion and OP can make his own decision.
    We appreciate any and all feedback on our products. I will send your hard anodizing/machining suggestion to our engineering and manufacturing staff.

    If you are going to be at the PRI show feel free to stop by our booth or if you are in Southern, CA feel free to come in for a tour of our facility. Maybe I can change your mind on our heads in person.

    Thanks Troy
    Talk with them? I know most of the guys you mentioned there (and others you didn't) and talk with some of them quite often. I've been doing this for a while now. Spent a year at Dart with Rich maskin on some of his PS program and 4+ years at Alan Johnsons up in Santa Maria. One of the guys you mentioned (above) is the one who had the soft head issue (I find it amusing that you've never heard about that) and has been using Brodix castings as of late for his bigger 24* conventional stuff. I have a very good engine builder friend in CA who has a set of your HIP Victor 24's on a very hard running 10.5 car. I think by the time most of us are done with a set of heads, very little of their original configuration is left. Most I know will either work with what a customer brings them, or they pick a head that has the basic architecture and other features they need regardless of the name on them. I've looked very closely at the new ProMaxx BB Chev casting and it's as nice as anything on the American market. Personally, I'm a "non denominational induction specialist".

    So, to stay on topic, why would you recommend the Edelbrock head other than the fact you work for them? Let's look at the details. What about the head specifically makes it a better choice?

    Hyd rollers...We've spent the last 4-5 yrs developing lour hyd roller program. All are Morel lifters. Some are the .842" performance drop-in but the good ones are the .903". We can throw just about any lobe profile and accompanying spring at them. We can put together a very basic hyd roller valve train that will rev to 7000 real easy. One customer had over 600 passes on his cam and lifters...pump gas 509 BB Chev in a 3500# Chevelle that ran 9.40's @ 140+.
    Intake manifolds...a good place to start but I usually have 25-40 hours in one before I'm done. Not a fan of the SV2 BB Chev intake at all. The new BB Chev TR is a little bit of a morphadite. Not exactly how I'd have done it but it certainly is BIG.

    LOL... always the way with flow numbers, isn't it? I like how you said, "Your numbers must be valid but"...

    Here's the thing. If your bench is calibrated correctly, then there's none of this nonsense about, "Our in-house flow benches and dyno's are 'very tough' to make high flow numbers and HP on". Come on. They're either right, or they're not. If your bench and dyno are calibrated correctly then numbers don't come hard or easy, they just are what they are and should read the same as any other correctly calibrated piece of equipment. I spent over a week going through a very detailed calibration process with our bench when we first got it, and I was directed/guided by one of the original engineers from Superflow. I can't mention his name because of a confidentiality agreement but suffice to say you've probably heard of him so I say respectfully you can save your polite although transparent attempt to discredit the flow numbers. Flow numbers and dyno numbers alike just a small part of a much larger picture... unless you're selling heads and engines. As far as credibility, I think you'll find that my induction and engines usually perform accordingly both on the dyno and race track.

    I'll be at PRI. Who will I be looking for? I'd love to stop by and say hi! I'll be at booth 109...Straub Technologies.
    None of this is personal for me, it's all just "stuff" and at the end of the day, there are more important things. Thanks again for taking the time to respond.
    Last edited by scott foxwell; 10-27-2017 at 01:13 PM.
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  8. #20
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    Hey Scott,
    I am going to take the high road here and we are simply going to have to agree to disagree. I agree with some of the comments you mention above and some of the other comments I do not agree with. No worries at all as everyone is allowed their own opinion.
    I see you guys at Straub Technologies promote Edelbrock on your website and we do appreciate that. We hope you will continue to do so and keep using our product. If there is anything I can help you with regarding our products please let me know.
    Thanks
    Troy
    Last edited by CycloneRacing; 09-19-2017 at 08:44 AM.

  9. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by CycloneRacing View Post
    Hey Scott,
    I am going to take the high road here and we are simply going to have to agree to disagree. I agree with some of the comments you mention above and some of the other comments I do not agree with. No worries at all as everyone is allowed their own opinion.
    I see you guys at Straub Technologies promote Edelbrock on your website and we do appreciate that. We hope you will continue to do so and keep using our product. If there is anything I can help you with regarding our products please let me know.
    Thanks
    Troy
    OK, I guess you can say we "disagree". I wasn't really looking at it like that but fair enough. Thanks again.
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.

  10. #22
    steelcomp was here
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    Quote Originally Posted by CycloneRacing View Post
    Hey Scott,
    I am going to take the high road here and we are simply going to have to agree to disagree. I agree with some of the comments you mention above and some of the other comments I do not agree with. No worries at all as everyone is allowed their own opinion.
    I see you guys at Straub Technologies promote Edelbrock on your website and we do appreciate that. We hope you will continue to do so and keep using our product. If there is anything I can help you with regarding our products please let me know.
    Thanks
    Troy
    sorry...double tap...
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.

  11. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CycloneRacing View Post
    I have been with Edelbrock for 15+ years. I don't really know of any soft head issues we have had. I asked around and nobody seems to remember or recall that issue either. We use the HIP process to make our heads stronger than anyone else on the market. As I said talk with reputable/well known head porters/Engine Builders and they will tell you the same thing. Porters/Builders like Frankenstein, RFD, Vic Hill, BES, Ultra Pro, Goodwin Competition, Total Engine Airflow, Shaut Racing Heads, West Coast Racing Cylinder Heads, MBE, QMP, Mercury Racing, Teague Custom Marine all use our castings and prefer to port on our HIpped versions over the competitions regular heat treated heads. Those are just a few I thought of off the top of my head that we do business with on an almost daily basis.
    You say that nobody else needs to use the HIpp process. That is true nobody needs to use it however it will make their heads much stronger and our customers where only some are listed above tell us time and time again they prefer it.

    I agree shaft mounted rockers are not necessary on lower HP builds. Anything race related should have a shaft system and that is why Jesel as well as T&D have systems for almost all of our heads. Generally a hydraulic roller setup would not need a shaft system and our heads with rocker studs handle the job just fine.
    7800 RPM out of a BBC with a hydraulic roller cam is impressive. What Hydraulic Roller lifters were you using that didn't float the vales at that RPM? Titanium Valves?

    I appreciate the kind words on our intakes. Those are what started the company and help us grow to this day. It seems like from the dirt to the asphalt to the water our intakes dominate racing. We hope you will keep using them.

    Well Superflow makes good test equipment and that is why we use it. Your numbers must be valid but I am curious what thy would make on our in house flow bench. Our in-house flow benches and dyno's are very tough to make high flow numbers and HP on. That is why we pride ourselves on our flow/HP numbers that they are actual numbers. We have had reputable head porters and engine builders tell us what their head flowed or HP their engine made and wen we get their head or engine in house it never makes the number they said it did. We joke and say it must be the Mississippi river correction factor they are using.

    No offense taken on your suggestion to OP. On the contrary I will politely suggest our Edelbrock stuff to him. We are allowed to have a difference of opinion and OP can make his own decision.
    We appreciate any and all feedback on our products. I will send your hard anodizing/machining suggestion to our engineering and manufacturing staff.

    If you are going to be at the PRI show feel free to stop by our booth or if you are in Southern, CA feel free to come in for a tour of our facility. Maybe I can change your mind on our heads in person.

    Thanks Troy
    Troy,
    We will stop by the booth at PRI sir. When Scott doesn't eat he gets a little grumpy. Don't mind him. I keep a Snickers bar in my pocket for him at all times. Have a great SEMA show.
    Chris Straub
    Straub Technologies

    3HP is an A$$ Whooping!!! JW

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