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Question Roller cams

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    clueless Sangerskier's Avatar
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    Default Question Roller cams

    On older gen small and big block chevys, what options do I have for setting roller cam end play when using a neovane water pump. I thought I read somewhere that the neovane won't stand up to it but I can't find that article either.

    Chris

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    Some guy obnoxious001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sangerskier View Post
    On older gen small and big block chevys, what options do I have for setting roller cam end play when using a neovane water pump. I thought I read somewhere that the neovane won't stand up to it but I can't find that article either.

    Chris
    You can do what I do, machine the timing cover to accept a Torrington thrust bearing and washers, then you merely need to make sure any pump you bolt on does not bottom out.

    If you bolt on the cam drive, then put the timing cover on with a gasket (don't seal it yet), snug down bolts, and use calipers or depth micrometer to measure from face of cover to the bolt heads, then pull the cover and measure the thickness of the cover from the face, you will know how much space you have. Then you need to have the bearing and washers in your hands, washers available are roughly (not exact) .030", .060", .090" and .120" if I recall. Measure the bearing between two washers and determine how much of he cover to machine (allow that the hole in the cover may not be directly centered on the cam). Don't forget to move the cam back in the block for your measurement. I normally allow for being able to remove a small amount from the socket head allen bolts to not only get the thrust I want, but to make sure they have a flat face.

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    Senior Member ol guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obnoxious001 View Post
    You can do what I do, machine the timing cover to accept a Torrington thrust bearing and washers, then you merely need to make sure any pump you bolt on does not bottom out.

    If you bolt on the cam drive, then put the timing cover on with a gasket (don't seal it yet), snug down bolts, and use calipers or depth micrometer to measure from face of cover to the bolt heads, then pull the cover and measure the thickness of the cover from the face, you will know how much space you have. Then you need to have the bearing and washers in your hands, washers available are roughly (not exact) .030", .060", .090" and .120" if I recall. Measure the bearing between two washers and determine how much of he cover to machine (allow that the hole in the cover may not be directly centered on the cam). Don't forget to move the cam back in the block for your measurement. I normally allow for being able to remove a small amount from the socket head allen bolts to not only get the thrust I want, but to make sure they have a flat face.
    I have a question on this topic. How much end play do you want on the camshaft solid or hydraulic roller? reason I ask is I have heard many different opinions on this and I know what I set them at just want another opinion. Mark

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    clueless Sangerskier's Avatar
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    What I've been told is .006-.010 is acceptable but the machinist I talked to said .010 is the very high end. I have never built a motor with a roller cam before.


    Chris

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    Some guy obnoxious001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ol guy View Post
    I have a question on this topic. How much end play do you want on the camshaft solid or hydraulic roller? reason I ask is I have heard many different opinions on this and I know what I set them at just want another opinion. Mark
    Quote Originally Posted by Sangerskier View Post
    What I've been told is .006-.010 is acceptable but the machinist I talked to said .010 is the very high end. I have never built a motor with a roller cam before.


    Chris
    Less than .010" is what I learned a very long time ago, and normally I set up endplay whether it's roller or flat tappet, just to keep engine timing from moving.

    Interesting footnote, Cloyes makes a nice timing cover with a button built in that you adjust after you assemble it. They call for zero lash, apparently counting on the aluminum timing cover to grow.

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    Senior Member ol guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obnoxious001 View Post
    Less than .010" is what I learned a very long time ago, and normally I set up endplay whether it's roller or flat tappet, just to keep engine timing from moving.

    Interesting footnote, Cloyes makes a nice timing cover with a button built in that you adjust after you assemble it. They call for zero lash, apparently counting on the aluminum timing cover to grow.
    I have seen the Cloyes deal and it is a great concept BUT with a v-drive and a cam driven water pump you are basically stuck with relying on the water pump to control cam walk! It has been done like that for????? years and not that I like it but it is what it is. The reason I chimed in on this is I have heard numbers from .020 to zero. I shoot for zero to .012 max. I prefer .004-.010 simply because iron blocks will grow I have never seen a timing cover get hot enough to grow. Also oil is the only lube you get between the cam gear and the block and that can account for .001-.0015. with that being said I don't want to have no room between the cam gear and the block for lube. Also if you notice most neovane style pumps have a strong impellar cover to hold things in place. FWIW I currently am building a blown engine and due to belt interference used a water pump extension to set the end play and get the plumbing and belt to play nice. What a PITA. Mark
    Last edited by ol guy; 11-10-2017 at 10:45 PM.

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    Some guy obnoxious001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ol guy View Post
    I have seen the Cloyes deal and it is a great concept BUT with a v-drive and a cam driven water pump you are basically stuck with relying on the water pump to control cam walk!
    Not so, I explained above the way I have been doing it on cam driven timing covers for over 20 years.

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    steelcomp was here
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    Quote Originally Posted by ol guy View Post
    I have seen the Cloyes deal and it is a great concept BUT with a v-drive and a cam driven water pump you are basically stuck with relying on the water pump to control cam walk! It has been done like that for????? years and not that I like it but it is what it is. The reason I chimed in on this is I have heard numbers from .020 to zero. I shoot for zero to .012 max. I prefer .004-.010 simply because iron blocks will grow I have never seen a timing cover get hot enough to grow. Also oil is the only lube you get between the cam gear and the block and that can account for .001-.0015. with that being said I don't want to have no room between the cam gear and the block for lube. Also if you notice most neovane style pumps have a strong impellar cover to hold things in place. FWIW I currently am building a blown engine and due to belt interference used a water pump extension to set the end play and get the plumbing and belt to play nice. What a PITA. Mark
    I swear, sometimes I read stuff here and think to myself, what the heck did I just read???

    Timing covers don't get hot enough to grow??? Really??? How hot does one have to get before it starts growing? Ever stick your hand on an aluminum timing cover when an engine is up to running temp? HOT damn! That sucker is hot!

    And what oil are you running that takes up .001-.0015???? LOL... that is some thick ass oil you're running. Google "engine oil film thickness" some time. You may have a few microns of hot oil thickness between the cam gear and block. One micron is about 40 millionths of an inch...

    Also, the impeller cover is not what stops the thrust or "holds things in place" on the water pump. The bearings in the extension catch the thrust. I run these pumps on the dyno with no impeller all the time.

    You sure you know what you're doing???

    Remember one thing; most of the natural thrust for a BB or SB Chevy is toward the block, even with a roller, due to the oil pump. I've never had a cam driven water pump wear becuase of cam thrust. I always shoot for .002-3 cam end play. It will never be less than that. The extension on the water pump is going to cause the most clearance change through growth with heat, the timing cover will also show some growth.
    If you have torrington bearings between the cam and block, and on a cam button or like Barry does, then you don't need any clearance at all the they can actually run under a small amount of preload but that would be difficult to determine so a thou or so is usually the target. You probably won't get away with that without bearings.
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
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    Senior Member ol guy's Avatar
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    Wow! that sounds like a response you would get from another "my way or the highway" kind of guy. For as many engines and years doing it without a cam,roller tappet,timing chain or block issue I'll stick with it. I have however seen torringtons come apart with all those needle bearings roaming around the engine. M

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    clueless Sangerskier's Avatar
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    I have a mark4 BBC thats drilled and tapped for a cam retention plate, why not use a gen 6 stepped nose cam, retention plate and timing set supposedly comp makes a double roller gen 6 that will fit under a mark4 timing cover. Then no cam button needed. Is this correct or am I missing something? This is a new engine build, not just a cam swap.

    Chris

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sangerskier View Post
    I have a mark4 BBC thats drilled and tapped for a cam retention plate, why not use a gen 6 stepped nose cam, retention plate and timing set supposedly comp makes a double roller gen 6 that will fit under a mark4 timing cover. Then no cam button needed. Is this correct or am I missing something? This is a new engine build, not just a cam swap.

    Chris
    That works great. Some of us just have a bunch of old cams on the shelf so going this route is cheaper for us.

    Paul

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    clueless Sangerskier's Avatar
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    Cool, just weighing all my options before I get knee deep in it. I have the block and heads but no rotating assy yet. The only for sure is it will be a stroker since I gotta buy the rotating assy anyway it makes no sense not to for pretty much the same money.

    Chris

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    Senior Member ol guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sangerskier View Post
    Cool, just weighing all my options before I get knee deep in it. I have the block and heads but no rotating assy yet. The only for sure is it will be a stroker since I gotta buy the rotating assy anyway it makes no sense not to for pretty much the same money.

    Chris
    You can check around with others and see how they set up end play. I know what I do and have never had any issues. But for your own piece of mind check with others and go from there! I would however do it on a P.M. scale to dodge the ??????? good luck and I hope for the best for your'e build. Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sangerskier View Post
    I have a mark4 BBC thats drilled and tapped for a cam retention plate, why not use a gen 6 stepped nose cam, retention plate and timing set supposedly comp makes a double roller gen 6 that will fit under a mark4 timing cover. Then no cam button needed. Is this correct or am I missing something? This is a new engine build, not just a cam swap.

    Chris
    You can do this. I would HIGHLY recommend teh Rollmaster set. Double roller, nitrided billet gears, captive torrington, and will fit under any BBC front cover.
    Chris Straub
    Straub Technologies

    3HP is an A$$ Whooping!!! JW

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