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Morel Lifter Failure?

  1. #15
    steelcomp was here
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    Quote Originally Posted by 28Eliminator View Post
    Scott, please re-read post #4. Valve springs were replaced at 200hrs, AND AGAIN AT 400. These springs have around 50 hours on them.

    In addition, I wasnít kidding when I said this engine has never been past 6k. Why would I lie? Have you been in my boat when I ran it past 6k? Itís a 28í Eagle.. a v hull boat with a bravo 1 drive. Once again, IT NEVER SAW 6k!!.

    First, I got 9 years and 450 hours out of this engine, and I was very happy with it. Iím not trying to point any fingers, or blame anyone or anything. I simply want to know what factors could have contributed to this failure so I can make sure it doesnít happen again.

    I know you and Chris are big Morel cheerleaders.. I get that. I bought parts from both of you for this engine originally. The Lifters I bought from TEAGUE, not Chris.

    Valve float for as long as youíre assuming would have damaged valves, marks on the pistons? Or even have marks on the backside of the cam lobes from the lifters bouncing.. No?? Bent pushrods? None of that exists. So understand my skepticism on the valve float/harmonics theory.

    I canít get past the tiny rivet cross section on the back of the tie bar buttons..






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    First, you're right...I didn't see the part where the springs were replaced again at 400. my bad. Who's springs are you using? What's the p/n?
    Second, no, Chris and I aren't "big Morel cheerleaders". We sell them, we endorse them, we put our name behind them, because they're the best lifter on the market. Doesn't matter who you bought them from.
    Third, I never said valve float.
    You asked the question. I gave the answer. I'm sorry of you don't like the answer and you can dismiss it if you like, insult me and Chris if you like, but the answer is that the only thing that causes tie bars to break like that is an out of control valve train. We sell thousands of sets of lifters a year. Broken tie bars are VERY infrequent (like maybe 2-3 sets a year) and they all have that same size rivet. There is no load on the tie bar until the valve train is out of control. When you have an out of control valve train parts start breaking. Tie bars don't just start breaking for no reason and they don't run 450 hours without breaking if there was an existing problem from the get go. The damage may have started before you changed the valve springs. At 50 hours, depending on the springs, they may already need replacing. What do the tips of your valves look like?
    As far as the engine never seeing 6000rpm...maybe, but I've been around boating WAY too long to know better. You get aired out at WOT even a couple times on a trip and I guarantee you the engine sees over 6000rpm. Hard for me to believe that never happened...but I'll take your word for it. There could be a harmonic at 5000rpm that's completely destructive to your valve train. Could be smooth as glass at 4500, and even 5500. Things like this you just don't know till problems start showing themself. I think the biggest factor, however, is just plain old time. 450 hours on a set of these lifters in that environment...I'd say you have nothing to complain about...not that you're complaining, I just think that's your answer.
    Last edited by scott foxwell; 02-06-2020 at 07:32 AM.
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.

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  3. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 28Eliminator View Post
    Scott, please re-read post #4. Valve springs were replaced at 200hrs, AND AGAIN AT 400. These springs have around 50 hours on them.

    In addition, I wasnít kidding when I said this engine has never been past 6k. Why would I lie? Have you been in my boat when I ran it past 6k? Itís a 28í Eagle.. a v hull boat with a bravo 1 drive. Once again, IT NEVER SAW 6k!!.

    First, I got 9 years and 450 hours out of this engine, and I was very happy with it. Iím not trying to point any fingers, or blame anyone or anything. I simply want to know what factors could have contributed to this failure so I can make sure it doesnít happen again.

    I know you and Chris are big Morel cheerleaders.. I get that. I bought parts from both of you for this engine originally. The Lifters I bought from TEAGUE, not Chris.

    Valve float for as long as youíre assuming would have damaged valves, marks on the pistons? Or even have marks on the backside of the cam lobes from the lifters bouncing.. No?? Bent pushrods? None of that exists. So understand my skepticism on the valve float/harmonics theory.

    I canít get past the tiny rivet cross section on the back of the tie bar buttons..






    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Cam dynamics use to make solid roller lifters that had a piece of wire between the 2 lifters for the "guide". I've sent the picture to a friend that work at another lifter mfg to see what he says. Not his part, but he designed the lifters at Crane.
    Chris Straub
    Straub Technologies

    3HP is an A$$ Whooping!!! JW

  4. #17
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    My friend that worked for another cam company that was based in FL called and said. It's been over revved at some point and broke the tie bars. He said with the time on the lifters it has probably been over revved over the years, it is a boat he said. The rivets have been fatigued with that many hours on the lifters and years of use. He said we supplied parts to a company up in WI and because of testing with our parts they recommended a change of our lifters at 200 hours....Our rockers too. He also noted the engine had been well taken care of as clean as it was.
    Chris Straub
    Straub Technologies

    3HP is an A$$ Whooping!!! JW

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  6. #18
    Can't re-Member 28Eliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott foxwell View Post
    First, you're right...I didn't see the part where the springs were replaced again at 400. my bad. Who's springs are you using? What's the p/n?
    Second, no, Chris and I aren't "big Morel cheerleaders". We sell them, we endorse them, we put our name behind them, because they're the best lifter on the market. Doesn't matter who you bought them from.
    Third, I never said valve float.
    You asked the question. I gave the answer. I'm sorry of you don't like the answer and you can dismiss it if you like, insult me and Chris if you like, but the answer is that the only thing that causes tie bars to break like that is an out of control valve train. We sell thousands of sets of lifters a year. Broken tie bars are VERY infrequent (like maybe 2-3 sets a year) and they all have that same size rivet. There is no load on the tie bar until the valve train is out of control. When you have an out of control valve train parts start breaking. Tie bars don't just start breaking for no reason and they don't run 450 hours without breaking if there was an existing problem from the get go. The damage may have started before you changed the valve springs. At 50 hours, depending on the springs, they may already need replacing. What do the tips of your valves look like?
    As far as the engine never seeing 6000rpm...maybe, but I've been around boating WAY too long to know better. You get aired out at WOT even a couple times on a trip and I guarantee you the engine sees over 6000rpm. Hard for me to believe that never happened...but I'll take your word for it. There could be a harmonic at 5000rpm that's completely destructive to your valve train. Could be smooth as glass at 4500, and even 5500. Things like this you just don't know till problems start showing themself. I think the biggest factor, however, is just plain old time. 450 hours on a set of these lifters in that environment...I'd say you have nothing to complain about...not that you're complaining, I just think that's your answer.
    Thanks for your input..


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  7. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 28Eliminator View Post
    S
    I know you and Chris are big Morel cheerleaders.. I get that. I bought parts from both of you for this engine originally. The Lifters I bought from TEAGUE, not Chris.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Its not being a cheerleader, it's about providing parts and service to give our customers the best results. I shipped over 3300 set of hyd roller lifters in 2019 with returns for warranty review under 20 sets......who in their right mind wouldn't support a manufacturers product with that kind of record.

    I also posted this over on the other forum where you have the topic:

    Pushing the stick forward on old 29' Fever I could cavitate the prop and blow it out pretty easy. 525EFI with a 26P. Not so much now with Bravo 3 and 8.1.
    MSD rev limit set at 6000 rpm.....MSD chips start to drop cylinders 300 rpm below what the chip states. That would be 5700. Its never good for an engine run on the limiter. You need to have that set at 6300 going forward.

    Base on cam specs and longevity of the combination, I feel the spring pressure was good. Crane has always been a respected brand and Mercury wants their Rockers, Lifters, and springs changed at 200 hours. At 5700 rpm max, you turning this engine higher than a "Blue" engine and got 2.25 X's the life out of the parts. I think its pretty damn good. Does it suck right now, yes. Was it a hell of an 8 years of boating fun....hell yes.

    It will be interesting to see how the seats and valves look in the heads.

    I will be more than willing to work with you and give you a discount on replacement parts.
    Chris Straub
    Straub Technologies

    3HP is an A$$ Whooping!!! JW

  8. #20
    steelcomp was here
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    Quote Originally Posted by cstraub View Post
    Its not being a cheerleader, it's about providing parts and service to give our customers the best results. I shipped over 3300 set of hyd roller lifters in 2019 with returns for warranty review under 20 sets......who in their right mind wouldn't support a manufacturers product with that kind of record.

    I also posted this over on the other forum where you have the topic:

    Pushing the stick forward on old 29' Fever I could cavitate the prop and blow it out pretty easy. 525EFI with a 26P. Not so much now with Bravo 3 and 8.1.
    MSD rev limit set at 6000 rpm.....MSD chips start to drop cylinders 300 rpm below what the chip states. That would be 5700. Its never good for an engine run on the limiter. You need to have that set at 6300 going forward.

    Base on cam specs and longevity of the combination, I feel the spring pressure was good. Crane has always been a respected brand and Mercury wants their Rockers, Lifters, and springs changed at 200 hours. At 5700 rpm max, you turning this engine higher than a "Blue" engine and got 2.25 X's the life out of the parts. I think its pretty damn good. Does it suck right now, yes. Was it a hell of an 8 years of boating fun....hell yes.

    It will be interesting to see how the seats and valves look in the heads.

    I will be more than willing to work with you and give you a discount on replacement parts.
    MSD rev chips are known to be terribly inaccurate and inconsistent. A 5700 chip could easily let the engine go over 6000 before it started pulling it back, especially on a free-rev like cavitating the prop or coming out of the water.
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.

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