[Pics] Morel Lifter Failure?
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 14 of 20

Thread:
Morel Lifter Failure?

  1. #1
    Can't re-Member 28Eliminator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    So Cal
    Posts
    1,990

    Default Morel Lifter Failure?

    I put this engine together in 2011, and have approx 450 hours on it. 516 BBC, AFR 305s, approx 9:1, Straub has roller cam.

    Down on power and sounded like it lost a cylinder. Tore it down and found 4 sets of tie bars broken off.. . One spun and took out #2 intake lobe.

    Obviously this didnt happen all at once, but more importantly, WHY did it happen? Any insight or ideas are welcome.. Im dumbfounded.

    Name:  IMG_6018.jpg
Views: 81
Size:  1.9 KB

    Name:  IMG_6019.jpg
Views: 79
Size:  1.7 KB

    Dave



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I'd agree with you, but then we would both be wrong

  2. Remove Advertisements
    PerformanceBoats.com
    Advertisements

  3. #2
    Can't re-Member 28Eliminator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    So Cal
    Posts
    1,990

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 28Eliminator View Post
    I put this engine together in 2011, and have approx 450 hours on it. 516 BBC, AFR 305s, approx 9:1, Straub has roller cam.

    Down on power and sounded like it lost a cylinder. Tore it down and found 4 sets of tie bars broken off.. . One spun and took out #2 intake lobe.

    Obviously this didnt happen all at once, but more importantly, WHY did it happen? Any insight or ideas are welcome.. Im dumbfounded.

    Name:  IMG_6018.jpg
Views: 81
Size:  1.9 KB

    Name:  IMG_6019.jpg
Views: 79
Size:  1.7 KB

    Dave



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    another try at the Pics

    Click image for larger version.

Name:	IMG_6018.jpg
Views:	8
Size:	25.7 KB
ID:	1035777

    Click image for larger version.

Name:	IMG_6019.jpg
Views:	7
Size:	24.9 KB
ID:	1035779
    I'd agree with you, but then we would both be wrong

  4. #3
    steelcomp was here
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    n/e TN
    Posts
    26,403

    Default

    Those are street series lifters. They have been run way beyond their intended use. Any time you see tie bars breaking like that it's due to serious valve train issues. Springs have probably gone away and engine was continued to be run hard.
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.

  5. Remove Advertisements
    PerformanceBoats.com
    Advertisements

  6. #4
    Can't re-Member 28Eliminator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    So Cal
    Posts
    1,990

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scott foxwell View Post
    Those are street series lifters. They have been run way beyond their intended use. Any time you see tie bars breaking like that it's due to serious valve train issues. Springs have probably gone away and engine was continued to be run hard.
    The street series have the .700 roller don't they? These had the .750 roller. Cam only had .650 lift. Springs replaced at 200hrs, and again at close to 400. 200Lbs seat @1.95. Rockers were set up at Midlift.. Custom pushrods made for it. This engine never saw 6k. I think I had it up to 5600 or 5700 a couple times. Is it possible these were some of the rumored "chinese knockoffs" that were allegedly floating around years ago?

    Click image for larger version.

Name:	IMG_6029.jpg
Views:	11
Size:	22.3 KB
ID:	1035781
    I'd agree with you, but then we would both be wrong

  7. #5
    Village Idiot fc-Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Peoria, AZ
    Posts
    3,346

    Default

    Holy crap! I have never seen anything like that before.

    Paul

  8. #6
    steelcomp was here
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    n/e TN
    Posts
    26,403

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 28Eliminator View Post
    The street series have the .700 roller don't they? These had the .750 roller. Cam only had .650 lift. Springs replaced at 200hrs, and again at close to 400. 200Lbs seat @1.95. Rockers were set up at Midlift.. Custom pushrods made for it. This engine never saw 6k. I think I had it up to 5600 or 5700 a couple times. Is it possible these were some of the rumored "chinese knockoffs" that were allegedly floating around years ago?

    Click image for larger version.

Name:	IMG_6029.jpg
Views:	11
Size:	22.3 KB
ID:	1035781
    My bad...yes, those are the retro drop in's with the .750 wheel.
    Did you get the lifters from Chris? Is there a small black X on the tie bar anywhere?
    Need a close up of some of the lifters.
    Last edited by scott foxwell; 02-04-2020 at 06:31 AM.
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.

  9. #7
    Can't re-Member 28Eliminator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    So Cal
    Posts
    1,990

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scott foxwell View Post
    My bad...yes, those are the retro drop in's with the .750 wheel.
    Did you get the lifters from Chris? Is there a small black X on the tie bar anywhere?
    Need a close up of some of the lifters.
    No. I bought them from Teague. I bought most everything else from Chris. No black X anywhere..

    Click image for larger version.

Name:	IMG_6030.jpg
Views:	2
Size:	21.5 KB
ID:	1035803

    Click image for larger version.

Name:	IMG_6035.jpg
Views:	3
Size:	21.0 KB
ID:	1035805





    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by 28Eliminator; 02-04-2020 at 08:21 AM.
    I'd agree with you, but then we would both be wrong

  10. #8
    steelcomp was here
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    n/e TN
    Posts
    26,403

    Default

    I guess all the questions have been answered on another thread (River Dave's).
    Definitely Morel.
    Bottom line is, when tie bars start braking, the valve train is VERY unhappy, for whatever reason.
    You have 200+ hours on this set of springs. That's the first place I would look.
    In 400+ hours, I would hesitate to say this engine has "never" been over 6000rpm. That's just not realistic.
    How many hours did it spend over 5000 rpm?

    Merc Marine recommends replacing lifters at 200 hrs.
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.

  11. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Tri-Cities, TN
    Posts
    1,680

    Default

    There is no load on tie bars. When a tie bar breaks the engine has harmonics in the valvetrain. From the pictures you posted on the other site, you the tips have the "star" pattern and your getting harmonics. The heads need to come off and be thoroughly checked. 450 hour is a ton of hours on a performance engine. Merc says to replace parts on the HP series stuff after 200 Hours. The lifter was getting the abuse and could not take it anymore in this case. Please let us know what you find out.
    Chris Straub
    Straub Technologies

    3HP is an A$$ Whooping!!! JW

  12. #10
    Steady Rollin
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Corona
    Posts
    1,065

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scott foxwell View Post
    I guess all the questions have been answered on another thread (River Dave's).
    Definitely Morel.
    Bottom line is, when tie bars start braking, the valve train is VERY unhappy, for whatever reason.
    You have 200+ hours on this set of springs. That's the first place I would look.
    In 400+ hours, I would hesitate to say this engine has "never" been over 6000rpm. That's just not realistic.
    How many hours did it spend over 5000 rpm?

    Merc Marine recommends replacing lifters at 200 hrs.

    so for general purposes...

    check springs at 200 hrs, if they are in spec can they be reused? or should we just swap them?

    same goes for roller lifters? is 200 hrs a good checking point?

    I just had an engine built and wanted to get some good estimates on windows for inspections.
    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
    -- Thomas Jefferson

  13. #11
    steelcomp was here
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    n/e TN
    Posts
    26,403

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sintax View Post
    so for general purposes...

    check springs at 200 hrs, if they are in spec can they be reused? or should we just swap them?

    same goes for roller lifters? is 200 hrs a good checking point?

    I just had an engine built and wanted to get some good estimates on windows for inspections.
    It's going to depend on the use or abuse. The 200hr mark seems to be what Merc Marine uses. If the springs are in spec, you can continue to use them but just be advised...everything, especially in the valve train, has a cycle life. Springs can go from "usable" do duds in a matter of a day's use without warning once they've reached their cycle life. That's where a really good quality super clean spring is worth it's $$. Needle roller lifters really don't have a "going bad" indicator. A bushing lifter will tell you when it's in failure mode. Lifters can be sent in for inspection and rebuild but it's time consuming. We tell most people that if their program is such that they thing they're going to need regular maintenance and rebuilds on lifters, have two sets. That way you'll always have a set to work with while the other set is being rebuilt. Of course, having the valve train up to the task including proper pushrod length and rocker geometry will go a long way to increasing service life.
    Hope that helps.
    Last edited by scott foxwell; 02-05-2020 at 12:41 PM.
    If God is your co-pilot, change seats!
    Acts 2:38, the perfect answer to the perfect question.

  14. #12
    Steady Rollin
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Corona
    Posts
    1,065

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scott foxwell View Post
    It's going to depend on the use or abuse. The 200hr mark seems to be what Merc Marine uses. If the springs are in spec, you can continue to use them but just be advised...everything, especially in the valve train, has a cycle life. Springs can go from "usable" do duds in a matter of a day's use without warning once they've reached their cycle life. That's where a really good quality super clean spring is worth it's $$. Needle roller lifters really don't have a "going bad" indicator. A bushing lifter will tell you when it's in failure mode. Lifters can be sent in for inspection and rebuild but it's time consuming. We tell most people that if their program is such that they thing they're going to need regular maintenance and rebuilds on lifters, have two sets. That way you'll always have a set to work with while the other set is being rebuilt. Of course, having the valve train up to the task including proper pushrod length and rocker geometry will go a long way to increasing service life.
    Hope that helps.
    Yea it does Scott.

    thanks
    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
    -- Thomas Jefferson

  15. #13
    Can't re-Member 28Eliminator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    So Cal
    Posts
    1,990

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scott foxwell View Post
    I guess all the questions have been answered on another thread (River Dave's).
    Definitely Morel.
    Bottom line is, when tie bars start braking, the valve train is VERY unhappy, for whatever reason.
    You have 200+ hours on this set of springs. That's the first place I would look.
    In 400+ hours, I would hesitate to say this engine has "never" been over 6000rpm. That's just not realistic.
    How many hours did it spend over 5000 rpm?

    Merc Marine recommends replacing lifters at 200 hrs.
    Scott, please re-read post #4. Valve springs were replaced at 200hrs, AND AGAIN AT 400. These springs have around 50 hours on them.

    In addition, I wasnt kidding when I said this engine has never been past 6k. Why would I lie? Have you been in my boat when I ran it past 6k? Its a 28 Eagle.. a v hull boat with a bravo 1 drive. Once again, IT NEVER SAW 6k!!.

    First, I got 9 years and 450 hours out of this engine, and I was very happy with it. Im not trying to point any fingers, or blame anyone or anything. I simply want to know what factors could have contributed to this failure so I can make sure it doesnt happen again.

    I know you and Chris are big Morel cheerleaders.. I get that. I bought parts from both of you for this engine originally. The Lifters I bought from TEAGUE, not Chris.

    Valve float for as long as youre assuming would have damaged valves, marks on the pistons? Or even have marks on the backside of the cam lobes from the lifters bouncing.. No?? Bent pushrods? None of that exists. So understand my skepticism on the valve float/harmonics theory.

    I cant get past the tiny rivet cross section on the back of the tie bar buttons..






    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I'd agree with you, but then we would both be wrong

  16. #14
    Senior Member ol guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Lake Elsinore Ca
    Posts
    3,837

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 28Eliminator View Post
    Scott, please re-read post #4. Valve springs were replaced at 200hrs, AND AGAIN AT 400. These springs have around 50 hours on them.

    In addition, I wasnt kidding when I said this engine has never been past 6k. Why would I lie? Have you been in my boat when I ran it past 6k? Its a 28 Eagle.. a v hull boat with a bravo 1 drive. Once again, IT NEVER SAW 6k!!.

    First, I got 9 years and 450 hours out of this engine, and I was very happy with it. Im not trying to point any fingers, or blame anyone or anything. I simply want to know what factors could have contributed to this failure so I can make sure it doesnt happen again.

    I know you and Chris are big Morel cheerleaders.. I get that. I bought parts from both of you for this engine originally. The Lifters I bought from TEAGUE, not Chris.

    Valve float for as long as youre assuming would have damaged valves, marks on the pistons? Or even have marks on the backside of the cam lobes from the lifters bouncing.. No?? Bent pushrods? None of that exists. So understand my skepticism on the valve float/harmonics theory.

    I cant get past the tiny rivet cross section on the back of the tie bar buttons..






    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    If I were you I would contact contact Howards cams and run it all buy them. I am knocking any body on this response BUT sometimes another opinion never hurts. I agree with alot here " especially the chinese knock off part" They build their own parts and will give you the straight up opinion. They have been doing this stuff along ALONG time and alot of cam grinders recommend their stuff. Again no offense to anybody here but everybody can use another opinion from time to time. Sometimes its a learning experience for all..MLAOP. M

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Quick Reply Quick Reply

Register Now

Please enter the name by which you would like to log-in and be known on this site.

Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Digg This Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95