Fuel Injection Guru's ??????
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Fuel Injection Guru's ??????

  1. #1
    !%@#$ Racer52's Avatar
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    Question Fuel Injection Guru's ??????

    Thought I would post a question since my brain is going a hundred mph and I wont be able to diagnose my issues until this weekend or next.

    So I have a F.I. setup with a quad rotor whipple. I have been tuning on this engine for years myself and this year its better than ever. The tune is what I would consider close to perfect if not perfect. It has all the goodies-sensors, o2, map, mat, wt, fp, ot, ect... all the standard stuff.

    So this weekend (Friday on the Delta for Hookey Day) the boat ran great as always. After about a 30 minute cruise up the river I did 2 WOT passes to see what it would do since the wife and kid were not onboard. The two passes were the best the boat has ran since I built/finished it. I was so stoked that I shut the engine down after the second pass to catch my breath, gloat, take a piss ect. I shut the engine down while it was still at about 3500 rpms and drifted to a stop. After saying F*#! ya a few times as the boat ran close to 120mph I went to restart it and it would not fire.
    I was sure I blew a fuse, or broke a dist. gear as it sounded like no spark. Low and behold after being towed to the dock it was flooded. YEP FLOODED an EFI. After I pulled the fuse to the fuel pump and opened the throttle it fired right up. Now its like a few injecctors are stuck open as it is running so rich that the fuel gauge goes down (visibly) whether I am runnning 35 mph or 95mph. The transom was charcoal black but ir ran and its on the trailer.
    I did a quick check and mechanically its fine, compression is all even.

    What do the F.I. gurus think it is since I have a week or so before I can put a lap top to it.

    I did the following;

    1. compression check = all good. even across the board
    2. pulled the flame arrestors and turned the key on and no injector was pumping fuel (static)
    3. fuel pressure was still at the original 45psi.


    did the ecu go?
    did the map sensor go?
    could it be related to the fuel pressure regulator?

    any thoughts may help and put me at ease.

    Racer

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  3. #2
    !%@#$ Racer52's Avatar
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    one more thing, I ran another 60 gallons through it running rich to make it back to the dock. The boat ran great, no issues. So I know its an electrical issue.

    Thanks in advance,

    Racer

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    New here Beer:30's Avatar
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    I've had two issues with an EFI setup running rich - suddenly.

    Both times it was the TPS. If the return spring breaks, a TPS will follow the throttle up to wherever you direct it - this case WFO. With a broken spring, the TPS stays at WFO when the throttle is closed. So, the butterfly is closed, but the ECM still thinks you're at 100% - thusly, fuel and ignition are directed to act accordingly.
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    EFI is the wave of the future. There can be no denying it. Electronics have been on the leading edge of our entire lives. Not only os the magneto dead, but the standard issue CDI is wavering. Its all about total fuel, air AND spark control. Anybody that thinks its not has their head up their ass.


    2001 SleekCraft 30' Heritage SSB, open-bow mid-cuddy. 496HO / Bravo-I.

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    Highaboosta Unchained's Avatar
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    It could have something to do with the TPS but typically if the throttle is over 80 % when cranking it goes into "clear flood" mode and the injectors do not fire.

    I had a connection problem with the plug on the TPS once but it didn't give the problems you described. It acted like a huge flat spot because it wasn't getting acceleration fuel. The main sensor for determining fuel delivery is the MAP sensor.

    You can test the MAP sensor with a compressed air line.
    Connect the laptop and make sure that changes in air pressure show up on the
    ECU's dashboard. While it's connected see if the TPS is responding.
    If there's a problem one or both should show a fault too.

    Twin Turbo 1800 HP V-Drive lake boat

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    No one cares about your buddies old antiquated garden hose technology.
    Quote Originally Posted by MAXIMUS View Post
    I think I could run more boost but it's a real hand full right now

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    21 Daytona Outlaw's Avatar
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    I'm not a guru, but curious what system you are running?
    Does it have the capability to view the sensor data?
    #55

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    grumpy old guy 3boatpaul's Avatar
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    kind of dumb on elec. efi so don't beat me up too bad . doe's it have an eng. temp unit feeding info to the computer ? had that problem once on my vet. apples to orange's tho .

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    !%@#$ Racer52's Avatar
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    Thanks for the input. I am leaning towards the map sensor and will change it for sure. But since there are a few good ideas I will plug in the laptop and
    test the TPS sensor and Map as described. I figured I would just change them but now I will test and see what the readings are.

    to answer its a simple Holley Commander 950 system with upgrades.

    Keep the thoughts coming since I have not been able to make it to the shop yet.

    Racer

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    New here Beer:30's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer52 View Post
    Thanks for the input. I am leaning towards the map sensor and will change it for sure. But since there are a few good ideas I will plug in the laptop and
    test the TPS sensor and Map as described. I figured I would just change them but now I will test and see what the readings are.

    to answer its a simple Holley Commander 950 system with upgrades.

    Keep the thoughts coming since I have not been able to make it to the shop yet.

    Racer
    Ah, the temp sensor is actually another good idea. However, it SHOULD just run crappy either cold or warmed up - but is should RUN at least.

    If you're getting fuel dumped it at an alarming rate; and the injector(s) are not stuck open - SOMETHING is telling the ECM it needs a whole lotta fuel. OR, the injector drivers in the ECM have gone wide open. Unlikely, though.

    Nice to see another peep using the C950! I have two cars with that ECM. One throttle body and one StealthRam MPI.
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    EFI is the wave of the future. There can be no denying it. Electronics have been on the leading edge of our entire lives. Not only os the magneto dead, but the standard issue CDI is wavering. Its all about total fuel, air AND spark control. Anybody that thinks its not has their head up their ass.


    2001 SleekCraft 30' Heritage SSB, open-bow mid-cuddy. 496HO / Bravo-I.

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    !%@#$ Racer52's Avatar
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    so you think the water temp sensor would/could do it. I did crack it and pushed it back into place and figured it was no biggie since the water temp never exceeds 100 degrees no matter what. time to buy a new one of those too.

    thanks.

    this is why I posted cause I was sure I wasnt thinking of all my options.

    Racer

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    Senior Member ap67et10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer52 View Post
    so you think the water temp sensor would/could do it. I did crack it and pushed it back into place and figured it was no biggie since the water temp never exceeds 100 degrees no matter what. time to buy a new one of those too.

    thanks.

    this is why I posted cause I was sure I wasnt thinking of all my options.

    Racer


    It's not about how hot the engine runs but rather that when a temp sensor goes open circuit it will read -40F. It really depends on who did the tuning because you can tune the progressive temp change out. What I mean is that in a car you may see an extreme cold condition and -40 coolant or air temp is somewhat feesible but in a boat...well it just not, so -40 should be setup to deliver fuel like a +40 reading should which then would never cause extreme, almost unrunable rich. But that may not be the case and if it's not it could cause pig rich condition.

    AP

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    grumpy old guy 3boatpaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3boatpaul View Post
    kind of dumb on elec. efi so don't beat me up too bad . doe's it have an eng. temp unit feeding info to the computer ? had that problem once on my vet. apples to orange's tho .
    when the tem. sending unit to the comp. on my vet. crapped out the comp. assumed it was a cold start , i was told that the comp. was seeing 64 deg. below zero . not sure of that tho , BUT that was what i was told
    OBTW it would run but crappy on low end and high fuel usage.

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    Highaboosta Unchained's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer52 View Post
    so you think the water temp sensor would/could do it. I did crack it and pushed it back into place and figured it was no biggie since the water temp never exceeds 100 degrees no matter what. time to buy a new one of those too.
    thanks.
    this is why I posted cause I was sure I wasnt thinking of all my options.
    Racer
    Like the other guys said ....the coolant temp sensor is your problem.
    The temp sensor, like all the other sensors, only know 0-5 volts.
    Disconnected it will think it's at 0 volts which will equate to minimum temp on the coolant map range.
    It would have been better to connect the two wires together and have it read 5 volts which would have not applied any coolant correction.

    Another important thing which is common for I/O's
    MOST of them I've seen have such a large water pump and no thermostat that the motor never warms up and it ALWAYS is applying coolant correction. That's what causes the black transom that a lot of guys complain about. It's just rich all the time. The coolant temp correction can easily add 30% +
    Make sure that the coolant map correction is flat lined to 0 at or below the temperature point where the motor runs. If it runs a closed loop system the motor will not go into closed loop if any coolant temp correction is being applied.

    Twin Turbo 1800 HP V-Drive lake boat

    http://s621.photobucket.com/albums/t...t=MAH05771.mp4

    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    No one cares about your buddies old antiquated garden hose technology.
    Quote Originally Posted by MAXIMUS View Post
    I think I could run more boost but it's a real hand full right now

  15. #13
    New here Beer:30's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unchained View Post
    Like the other guys said ....the coolant temp sensor is your problem.
    The temp sensor, like all the other sensors, only know 0-5 volts.
    Disconnected it will think it's at 0 volts which will equate to minimum temp on the coolant map range.
    It would have been better to connect the two wires together and have it read 5 volts which would have not applied any coolant correction.

    Another important thing which is common for I/O's
    MOST of them I've seen have such a large water pump and no thermostat that the motor never warms up and it ALWAYS is applying coolant correction. That's what causes the black transom that a lot of guys complain about. It's just rich all the time. The coolant temp correction can easily add 30% +
    Make sure that the coolant map correction is flat lined to 0 at or below the temperature point where the motor runs. If it runs a closed loop system the motor will not go into closed loop if any coolant temp correction is being applied.
    Very good point(s).
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    EFI is the wave of the future. There can be no denying it. Electronics have been on the leading edge of our entire lives. Not only os the magneto dead, but the standard issue CDI is wavering. Its all about total fuel, air AND spark control. Anybody that thinks its not has their head up their ass.


    2001 SleekCraft 30' Heritage SSB, open-bow mid-cuddy. 496HO / Bravo-I.

  16. #14
    21 Daytona Outlaw's Avatar
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    Looks like you found the problem Racer

    Mark I plan on running my coolant sensor in the oil pan and adjusting the coolant correction map to correlate with the oil temps. does this sound
    like it will work? my jet boat water temp will never see 120°


    #55

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