cam breakin WHY?
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cam breakin WHY?

  1. #1
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    Default cam breakin WHY?

    maybe someone can answer this. why dont the cam manufactures break in flat/hyd cams @ the factory? ie. make a fixture to rotate cam in pure lube with low spring pressure and then pkg lifters so they will be placed right back on the same lobe when installed in engine. maybe be sold only as a kit with proper springs?

    guess they would not sell as many cams that way?

    if i was still running this type of cams i would make my own fixture with a old block and seal up the cam tunnel on a old block and do it on a engine stand with an old set of heads and some real light valve springs.

    what do you guys think.

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    why do that they would lose money,loL!!!


    the biggest problem i have found time and time agian with flat tappet cams going down is the people not checking things.Mainly spring pressures.there are some blocks with very poor lifter bores(core shift,ect)that need special attention that the normal peeps cant do but ive only had 1 block like that out of many.

    i call major bullshit on the oils today causing the most problems.

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    There's a dozen reasons a cam can go flat but the main reasons are spring pressure, improper break-in, the new oils or imperfections in the lifter bore machining. Breaking them in at the factory could help if, the end user didn't swap lifters inadvertently when installing (remember who we are dealing with here) but I'll openly blame lubrication-especially the new oils. I built too many flat tappet engines in the past without a single cam going flat by using molybdenum disulfide lube and breaking them in at an elevated RPM for the first couple minutes of engine operation. Lately, we've built a couple that immediately went flat using the exact same process. The last one killed the cam while breaking it in on the dyno before we could even make a pull. The new oils have us convinced around here that they can't properly lubricate a flat tappet engine. We've even seen engines that have run for years now going flat with the new oils. I can't come up with a better explanation for those than the change in new oils. I have no doubts somebody will follow this up with a reminder that I'm only some clown who posts in the political threads, and that I'm full of my self, but what I've posted here are from personal experience.
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    doc

    i have the same experience as you post here. i moved over to roller cams some 20 years ago and never looked back, i hate to see good people still throwing good money at the old flat/hyd cam setups hell after two or three bad cams and all the crap ran thru there engines the roller would of paid for itself.

    I can here it now but ya you can get lucky with your solid or hyd cam with lower spring pressures but most people dont and with todays oil i here more don't every day.

    i run rotella 15w40 with my roller setups in non/race app with great results should be a great oil for flat tappet guys.


    thanks for your post.

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    I agree with you two, for years and years I put together small block fords, fired them up and never thought twice about a cam going flat... Maybe my old junk springs were so worn out that there wasnt enough heat generated to do any damage... Possible...

    I have done alot of reading on this topic and the consensus is that the EPA mandated removal of ZINC is the culprit...

    I know someone on here that builds ALOT of SS/PS engines that could shed alot of light on this topic if he wanted to... He's kinda short, dark hair (what's left of it) OH he also has a really nasty bird egg blue Kboat...
    Pat Eason, the voice of reason...

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    Lightbulb

    maybe the oils are the problems90 percent of our motors that we have built and are going to build are flat tappet deals.so why are we not seeing this happen,luck maybe?

    i know of a real good engine guy that lives not far from me,he will build flat tappet deals and has several in boats that he built with non-issues,so why?

    for what its worth we do run Valvoline 20-50 racing oil that states its good for flat tappet deals,and i always add EOS on initial run.

    is it the cam manufactures letting there cores get softer?
    are guys recommending more spring pressure for better performance?

    okay if they have taken all the good out of oils,why then hasn't my mill 6 years old(always ran Valvoline racing 20-50)gone flat yet,what about my brothers mill?what about 2 other mills i have built gone flat yet?

    spring pressures are never over 130 seat-350-375 open.

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    http://www.valvoline.com/products/co...ng-motor-oil/9

    Special order from NAPA... NOTICE the "not street legal" on the label..
    Pat Eason, the voice of reason...

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    It is totally impossible for the cam companies to break in the cam. There are just to many variables. Lifters that aren't bore dead nutz perpenticular to the cam, lifters that are just slight foward or back on the lobe, the relationship between the machined surface behind the t gear and the lifter bores, and goes on and on. I have seen more than a couple of cams that wore very nicely in one moter, and die a quick death when installed in another. With or without new lifters. One of the riskiest things you can do in a motor is run a used flat tappet cam from another motor.



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    Quote Originally Posted by 2manymustangs View Post
    http://www.valvoline.com/products/co...ng-motor-oil/9

    Special order from NAPA... NOTICE the "not street legal" on the label..
    exactly!!!!i ran VR1 20-50 up until my local NAPA store started carrying this and he sells it to me for a buck more a Quart than VR1.

    but imo the VR1 is good stuff also.so why dont guys with flat tappets run VR1 or this stuff?????just makes sense to me.

    i will agree that rollers are the way to go,but damn to get set-up it cost $$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!when most of lake engines really imo cant benefit from them other than a piece of mind that your cam wont go flat.

    take precautions and use good oil and run adequate spring pressure.


    a few years ago i had 2 cams go flat in a mill that i had built couldn't figure it out.then hello the lifter bores sucked and got them bushed and lined BINGO no more problems.but that is the only 1 so far,but then again i just build for myself or family.
    Last edited by hotbo; 10-22-2009 at 01:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    It is totally impossible for the cam companies to break in the cam. There are just to many variables. Lifters that aren't bore dead nutz perpenticular to the cam, lifters that are just slight foward or back on the lobe, the relationship between the machined surface behind the t gear and the lifter bores, and goes on and on. I have seen more than a couple of cams that wore very nicely in one moter, and die a quick death when installed in another. With or without new lifters. One of the riskiest things you can do in a motor is run a used flat tappet cam from another motor.
    I was also thinking about the issue of inconsistent lifter placement on factory blocks. That one would definitely be problems. Heck, a slightly different timing gear could throw the whole mess off.

    Yes, you can make flat tappets live. It takes compromises that some of us (namely me) don't want to have to go through. I lost a can about a year ago and talked to the manufacturer about it. They asked very detailed questions regarding the install. After talking with them for almost twenty minutes they said I had done everything right. At that point they then admitted that they themselves had a cam go flat on break in just the week before. That alone told me that something is up. Anyway, it can be done, just cross your fingers.

    Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotbo View Post
    exactly!!!!i ran VR1 20-50 up until my local NAPA store started carrying this and he sells it to me for a buck more a Quart than VR1.

    but imo the VR1 is good stuff also.so why dont guys with flat tappets run VR1 or this stuff?????just makes sense to me.

    i will agree that rollers are the way to go,but damn to get set-up it cost $$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!when most of lake engines really imo cant benefit from them other than a piece of mind that your cam wont go flat.

    take precautions and use good oil and run adequate spring pressure.


    a few years ago i had 2 cams go flat in a mill that i had built couldn't figure it out.then hello the lifter bores sucked and got them bushed and lined BINGO no more problems.but that is the only 1 so far,but then again i just build for myself or family.
    I really don't think that anyone here is suggesting that the issues with solid flats are POST break in... I believe that for POST break in the standard oil quality is OK, the problem is when the new lifters are deciding if they like their NEW mate... or not... I believe the issues are just at break in BUT someone may not notice the end results until long after break in IF they aren't watching things closely...
    Pat Eason, the voice of reason...

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    Because the hydraulic lifter has to rotate on the cam to get a pattern, Once its broken in to remove each lifter goes with lobe it was on, if not you will have to replace and go thru again with the breakin process.
    A roller this is not an issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    It is totally impossible for the cam companies to break in the cam. There are just to many variables. Lifters that aren't bore dead nutz perpenticular to the cam, lifters that are just slight foward or back on the lobe, the relationship between the machined surface behind the t gear and the lifter bores, and goes on and on. I have seen more than a couple of cams that wore very nicely in one moter, and die a quick death when installed in another. With or without new lifters. One of the riskiest things you can do in a motor is run a used flat tappet cam from another motor.
    Conversly I have swapped around used 5.0 rollers, cams and 2.3 cams roller followers without a second thought...

    I'm sticking with rollers... Conversions on my old blocks are cheap and easy in the grand scheme relative to the total cost of a new engine build...
    Pat Eason, the voice of reason...

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc-Pilot View Post
    Heck, a slightly different timing gear could throw the whole mess off.

    Paul
    I have lost a cam that had run 120,000 mi., and went flat in less than 100 mi. after changing the t-chain and gears. Never even removed the cam from ther block. The new t-chain pulled the cam rfurther foward approx, .010 than the old t gear. And thats all it took on a cam that was broken in and run with the lifters running .010 further foward on the lobes.



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