Quench Grooves?
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Quench Grooves?

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    Senior Member Josh@JBP's Avatar
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    Default Quench Grooves?

    I remember reading about this mod on the Speed Talk forums a few years back. Does any one have any first hand experience, seems like if it was worth the smallest gain it would be worth it, considering it shouldn't cost anything (done right).

    http://somender-singh.com/content/view/7/31/

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    gn7
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    Tony Bischoff did this in the 2005 Engine Master Challenge. Except he put the grooves in the piston top. He said then, he didn't know if it helped any, but he was pretty certain it didn't hurt any.



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    Village Idiot fc-Pilot's Avatar
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    There was a lot of talk about theory and speculation as to why it works in some applications. It was fun to read what some of the individuals though was going on and why it worked in some applications better than others. I am afraid that it is all based on how tight the squish is in the first place, what fuel you are trying to run vs. the compression ratio and about a thousand other factors. I would love to do a back to back test and try it, but that would take time and money I don't have.

    Paul
    Last edited by fc-Pilot; 11-16-2009 at 07:46 PM. Reason: My editing team missed my mistake

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    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc-Pilot View Post
    There was a lot of talk about theory and speculation as to why it works in some applications. It was fun to read what some of the individuals though was going on and why it worked in some applications better than others. I am afraid that it is all based on my tight the squish is in the first place, what fuel you are trying to run vs. the compression ratio and about a thousand other factors. I would love to do a back to back test and try it, but that would take time and money I don't have.

    Paul
    I can't say I am totally certain as to what exactly they are trying to accomplish. The whole idea of a squish/quench area isto create turbulence, and push /squeeze the charge into a reduced chamber. This looks as though they are trying to light that area off. That's an up hill battle if there ever was one. That was the reason behind the open chambers of the Mopars and Ford Clevelands. To reduce the unburnt hydrocarbons snuffed out in the quench area. Don't think a couple of grooves are going to solve the problem. Don't see this as ever being a "performance enhancement".



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    Village Idiot fc-Pilot's Avatar
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    I see it this way, it this could create a more efficient use of the A/F in the chamber or better flame travel then it is either going to decrease fuel consumption or make more power. Now the key is weather or not we can quantify weather or not it will indeed do either of these things. Most importantly is being able to show that any improvements are based off of the slots and not some other variables.

    Paul

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    www.highflowdynamics.com LakesOnly's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    I remember reading about this mod on the Speed Talk forums a few years back. Does any one have any first hand experience, seems like if it was worth the smallest gain it would be worth it, considering it shouldn't cost anything (done right).

    http://somender-singh.com/content/view/7/31/
    Quench grooves, quench trenches, squish jets, fire slots, etc. Singh is one of perhaps dozens of people to have received a U.S. patent (most of them before he) documenting and "proving" the effects of this modification through several different approaches to get the same result. As I recall, Singh is in India and is a motorcycle mechanic that had been constantly dealing with the dilemma of the "cat piss pump gas" that they are stuck with in that country and turned to the fire slots in order to control detonation.

    And controlling detonation is probably what the fire slots are best for. I have never done dyno testing but know others that have and also used the fire slots in their EMC engines specifically for detonation control. There was no measured hp gain; low rpm torque was improved in that the heavy loads imposed on the engines did not result in detonation where they typically did without the slots.

    The idea is that as the piston approaches the quench pad and squeezes the air-fuel mixture away from the quench pad, some of the air-fuel mixture collects in the groove and thereby "jets" at a higher velocity into the chamber in a more focused manner toward the plug. In other words, it does what the quench pad already does but "takes it up a notch." The jet increases mixture motion, particularly around the spark plug, and improves flame propogation which helps complete the burn.

    It just so happens that I am currently doing a set of D3's right now for a low power personal build that will be in a 5000-pound vehicle and which I want to run on whatever I can get....87 octane gas, paint thinner, acetone, whatever.





    The above pics show these D3VE heads with the fire slots machined in but still in an unfinished state, no other detailing. I've since made further progress but have not yet taken pics. My chosen depth, width and (to some extent) length of the slots varies depending on the overall combo, application, rpm, etc. In the case above, I've used a 1/16-inch ball end mill (0.0625") and went 0.075" deep in anticipation of removing 0.010" off the heads at resurfacing (will be approximately 0.0625" wide x 0.0625" deep after the heads are shaved). On other combos I may use a 3/32-inch ball end mill (0.093"). The fire slot--when there is just one per chamber--usually points toward the spark plug so as to send the jetted turbulence toward the plug. Detonation is minimized and torque is improved where it might have otherwise been hindered (from the pinging) at low rpm/high load conditions.

    LO
    Last edited by LakesOnly; 11-16-2009 at 10:26 PM.
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    Village Idiot fc-Pilot's Avatar
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    LakesOnly, how much compression are you planning on putting to this thing? I would love to hear about how this turns out.

    Paul

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    Cool harley davidson heads

    this is(has been done for a #of years) being done by some head porters in the performance aspect of HD heads.

    it always turns into a major debate,it has shown no signs of adding hp to them according to dyno runs.but the head porters that do this groove in the heads basically say the same as with the auto guys that do it,they swear by it to help reduce cylinder temps and help in the detonation dept.

    i myself from what i have read, seen in dyno sheets ect. call it SNAKE OIL.

    maybe it does help maybe it doesnt.Travis

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    The carbon patterns on the pistons and chambers seems that the pattern is uniform in all the pics I've seen. Seems to help complete the burning of all fuel in the combustion space......which is where you want to burn it right?!

    It does not look like it hurts anything at all (perhaps just compression by a small amount).......and is a relatively simple mod......I'd say do it if you want to.

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    gn7
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    LO's explaination makes more sense than trying to ignite what ever charge is trapped in the quench area. Which is what the link seems to infer. The whole "jet" turbulance thing is at least conceivable. The whole wedge chamber, quench/squish area thing is all about turbulance, as is the swirl bump/hump, and "pitched" valve pocket, etc.



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    With proper chamber/piston blending and design it is not needed. I believe the slots are just covering up a poor chamber/piston design or detail.
    If you are noticing a burn problem across the piston or chamber, fixing the problem through proper blend and design is better than slotting.

    Kinda like the old "Storm Fronting" of chambers and port surfaces!

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    gn7
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    I agree. Like I said, I don't see this as a "complete burn" thing. It doesn't seem to have helped Bischoff's burn if you go back and look at the pic. Seems more of a path way, jetting out of the quench area. Don't see how this would add to the burn "back there" thru those slots.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp Speed View Post

    Kinda like the old "Storm Fronting" of chambers and port surfaces!
    Jay, Can you elaborate?

    W/ the older BBC stuff, it might be a crutch.....but we probably need it cause of the science back then was not what it is now.

    Just trying to make the most of what we got.

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    www.highflowdynamics.com LakesOnly's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by fc-Pilot View Post
    LakesOnly, how much compression are you planning on putting to this thing? I would love to hear about how this turns out.

    Paul
    This is a low compression engine that is going into a heavy car, and I want the 5000+ pound car to be able to pull grades with my jet boat in tow, and on 87 octane. And I will use an RV cam but one with a 110* LSA and shut the valve early and get some squeeze, which is why I added the grooves.

    But to better answer your question: Suppose I build a 460, a specific combo that generates 550 hp on 92 octane pump gas. This combo works perfectly but detonates at 10.25:1, not 10:1 as it is set up. Then, if I mill the heads to get 11:1 and add the squish jets, this engine combo will not detonate at 11:1. Does the engine now make more horsepower? Yes, BUT it makes more horsepower due to the increase in compression ratio, not from the squish jets. Case in Point: If I added the squish jets to the 10:1 version of this combo which already did not detonate, horsepower would remain exactly the same.

    So this is not a magic power adder of some kind, it simply addresses detonation and, within that, may allow an engine to offer up more power through this detonation control.

    LO
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