Locked out timing/starting question
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Locked out timing/starting question

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    Senior Member H20MOFO's Avatar
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    Default Locked out timing/starting question

    I heard once somewhere that a starter would have an easier time turning a motor at say 37* than it would 16 or 17*. Is that true or false?? I asked pretty much the same question over on the bullet last night, and a couple of guys said that there deal seamed happier with 10* pulled than 20*. Right now I don't have the ability to "pull" anything, just trying to decide if I should put that on my to want list.lol
    Another Hot Boat refugee

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    Senior Member bp298's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H20MOFO View Post
    I heard once somewhere that a starter would have an easier time turning a motor at say 37* than it would 16 or 17*. Is that true or false?? I asked pretty much the same question over on the bullet last night, and a couple of guys said that there deal seamed happier with 10* pulled than 20*. Right now I don't have the ability to "pull" anything, just trying to decide if I should put that on my to want list.lol
    i say false. what ignition do you have in that thing?

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    Just another Wannabe Wannabe's Avatar
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    Easier at 37 degrees than 17 degrees? Really??!!

    I run programmable ignitions and we pull timing OUT to help it start.

    Never heard of an ignition system trying to add timing to help start an engine.
    But yes, the programmables have aids of dropping timing under a certain rpm to help them start. They are very helpful. For our injected alcohol engines, 20 is the best for starting.

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    Senior Member H20MOFO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bp298 View Post
    i say false. what ignition do you have in that thing?
    It's just an aftermarket HEI.
    Another Hot Boat refugee

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    Senior Member Ronboats's Avatar
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    Check the parts spam section. I have a programmable timing computor for use with msd ignitions for sale. Has start retard, high speed retard, etc.
    Just fyi

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    Senior Member Schiada 201's Avatar
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    The hei is fine just the way you got it, I would not use the vacuum canister but the mechanical side.
    Unless you are running high compression wild cam it is not necessary to lock out the timing. Rev it up 25-3000 rpm set the full out timing you want wherever it times at idle will be the inital. If it starts good runs good leave it alone.
    And a starter works harder to spin then 35-38 degrees , when the engine gets hot it will work the starter even harder.

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    Bostick Racing Engines six-oh-nine's Avatar
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    I would say what they may mean is depending on the combo it may start and idle easier... like it has no vacuum and needs a lot of lead to idle.... (my injected alky deal is a pig to start and get to run with less than 30+) but as far as the work load on the starter... no way 30+ degrees is less stressful on the starter than 17 or so... especially add high compression and high cranking compression.
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    Senior Member H20MOFO's Avatar
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    I don't think I or anyone would call my combo radical(fwiw). I didn't really want to turn this into a lock it or don't thread. The "somewhere" I heard this was in hot boat magazine. Fwiw my boat has never idled better cold,and seemed to have better response out of the hole,since I locked it out. I'm at 39* total. Even If I took 20* out(or whatever is in the mech. adv. on an hei) that's still 19* at start up. I'm not convinced it would start easier at 19*
    Another Hot Boat refugee

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    Default locked out timming

    Is it hard on your rod bearings locked at 35 plus degres at idle?
    Half the people in the world are below average.

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    I'm No Expert Shaun's Avatar
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    i'm locked out at 34* and i dont have any retard function. What i do is press the starter button and then flip the ignition switch. Since the MSD takes a second or so it activate the starter usually has the engine spinning fast enough and it starts right up. I've accidently hit the ignition switch early a few times and i can say the starter does not like it. Motor pretty much wants to run backwards.

    Now.. before it was locked out i ran 15* of initial and 36* total. No seperate igniton switch, everything was on the key. It would start easy, same starter..

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    Bostick Racing Engines six-oh-nine's Avatar
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    H2O...

    As far as your initial post... just think about it for a second... Do you think it would be easier to crank the engine over when it's trying to fire closer to TDC and has less to travel to the down stroke, or further away before TDC where it has further to travel and compress to be on the down stroke side? I'm not trying to be a dick or anything... but what makes more sense to you? Often times what makes the most sense for a reasonable person if often the more correct answer. In the old days when people actually had to hand crank their Model T to start... one part of the procedure was to pull the lever on the steering wheel that controlled the advance in the magneto (no swinging weights in those days) in the "full retard" (their term... not mine) so as to not break your arm when you cranked it over and it tried to "back up" on you and try firing backwards... and sometimes resulting in broken hands/arms/legs whatever got in the way of the hand crank.

    And as for the last post...
    You'd be surprised how much easier it would crank over with the ignition on at 19* vs. 39* with upwards of 500 inches and 13:1+ compression even with a hefty starter and good rotor phasing... for a 468 that's about 9-10:1... then you may not notice much of a difference if you have a decent starter... should work just fine. BUT... stock GM old school one though, and you may need to pack an extra one and a flex plate in the "things to pack in the boat" list with locked out at 39* and no retard... it may not backup on you EVERY time... but it will backup on you at the WRONG time... and chipped starter teeth are lucky... blowing the starter nose right off the block is not uncommon.

    I have had stocker 8.5:1 chevys with the high torque strarters start all the way up to 50* initial advance and other than being a little slow on the cranking... start just fine (customer couldn't figure out why it pinged right off idle )
    Last edited by six-oh-nine; 12-12-2009 at 09:46 PM.
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    Senior Member bp298's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
    i'm locked out at 34* and i dont have any retard function. What i do is press the starter button and then flip the ignition switch. Since the MSD takes a second or so it activate the starter usually has the engine spinning fast enough and it starts right up. I've accidently hit the ignition switch early a few times and i can say the starter does not like it. Motor pretty much wants to run backwards.

    Now.. before it was locked out i ran 15* of initial and 36* total. No seperate igniton switch, everything was on the key. It would start easy, same starter..
    msd "starter saver"s are relatively cheap and easy to install with any msd ignition. small little box, won't even notice it. you wouldn't need to do the "hit button, flip switch" trick if you install one.

    kinda puzzling why you would lock out an hei??? all that advance isn't helping your starter issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H20MOFO View Post
    I heard once somewhere that a starter would have an easier time turning a motor at say 37* than it would 16 or 17*. Is that true or false?? I asked pretty much the same question over on the bullet last night, and a couple of guys said that there deal seamed happier with 10* pulled than 20*. Right now I don't have the ability to "pull" anything, just trying to decide if I should put that on my to want list.lol
    BTDC means piston before top dead center.
    So, the more advance you have the earlier the spark plug fires as the piston is raising towards top dead center. Since during cranking your piston is moving slowly, you are igniting things which is trying to push your piston back down while it's trying to go up. When thinking about things (ignition timing, cam timing, etc) actual time is something to consider vs just degrees.

    Anyhow, you can get a start retard (starter saver), but since you aren't going to spend the $$$ right away your other option is what Shaun has done.

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    One thing that has a major impact on engine cranking is flywheel/flex plate diameter. The smaller you go, the less leverage the starter has to rotate the engine.
    Two years ago Nascar changed to flywheel rule allowing the use of a cable drive fuel pump to be ran off of the back of the cam. To do this we had to greatly reduce the diameter of the flywheel (thus lowering the leverage). This created big problems and lead to numerous starter failures that we have just now got under control (we think! LOL). The original flywheel/starter set-up was a standard type 153 tooth and a corvette starter. We had no problem starting our 12to1 small blocks with locked out timing. As soon as we went to the smaller flywheel......done!
    In my boat I had a 598ci (4.5 stroke) 11.5to1 BBC with a 168 tooth flywheel and a Pep Boys re-manned oem starter. Never had a problem starting it hot or cold, even when running 87 octane dock gas, with timing locked at 32*. Never even had to do the crank before turning on the ignition either, although, as mentioned above, it is recommended.

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