lil good info about water/meth injection
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lil good info about water/meth injection

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    mo balls than $cents$ IMPATIENT 1's Avatar
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    Default lil good info about water/meth injection

    saw this post on yellowbullet and thought it held some pretty good info:

    Re: Single S480 (80mm) Turbo on 347, how fast are you going?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    No intercooler. I use water injection to prevent detonation with pump gas and it also cools the charge ~60 degrees.

    Now let me get some shit started--

    I tested seperately on chassis dyno with straight alcohol, water, and washer fluid.

    Water gave best HP and lowest intake temp.

    Washer fluid did nearly as well as water. Within 5 degrees IAT and no difference in HP

    On straight alcohol the AFR looked better, but intake temps very high +45 degrees over water, HP was 35 lower.

    Fixed the AFR with tune adjustment and now run only washer fluid. I would run plain water, but distilled water costs nearly same as washer fluid and I like having the blue color should I get a leak.

    I mentioned my findings to an engineering friend who works with boiler systems and he started talking about latency of steam and how water can absorb 10 times more heat by weight than alcohol. So I guess it doesn't matter which liquid feels cooler on your skin, absorbtion of heat is more important than evaporation cooling in my engine.

    Most "experts" will argue with me about this, but you can't change physics

    Dare to be different, if it turns out great you can claim you planned it that way.

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    Senior Member jockorace's Avatar
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    Default Water / Alcohol mix

    Did you try a 50-50 mix of water / alcohol as well? My son and I have run that setup on a few motors with the same results. We never dyno'd it, but seat of the pants told us it works! Jocko

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    My 1979 dually 'work truck' ran "87" Arco fuel and H2O only. 221,000 miles on the original motor, and a total of 497,000 on two motors, with NO bearing marking from detonation on either motor. As "our work truck" I tried to keep the turbo boost (un-intercooled) at 5lbs, but it was often 'dialed up' by employees to 8lbs. We towed a number of heavy loads and never had any failures. I even towed our own 10.5' camper, and 22' cruiser, ALONG with a short bed 'Z71' pickup and 17'10" Canyon jet over the GRAPE VINE at 65 MPH. This load was much heavier than our 'enclosed raceboat trailer' but we only used 7/8 of a gallon of H2O for the entire trip. EGT numbers VS intake temp numbers indicated that the H2O was turning to steam just before it hit the intake valves. That process was COOLING the intake runners and (IMHO) actually sucking up heat as it went into the motor. I feel that the H2O did the 'intake charge cooling' needed, and after testing H2O with alcohol I gained nothing positive. IMHO the alcohol 'bonded' with the water and "rode out the tailpipe" unused. The "actual alcohol thermal breakdown time" (burn time) was never achieved, because the "boost/pressures/temps/spark timing", never allowed them to burn in this gas motor. I run 41 degrees off boost and 32 degrees on boost. The truck motor has an Engle 'TC7' turbo cam. This cam has valve event timing that FORCES the turbo to spool. We have towed a lot of heavy weights over the years with these motors, and they did NOT FAIL. My questions are: " Are our boat motor failure problems boost values, cylinder temps, inlet temps, total cylinder pressures, back pressures (boost values VS boost numbers), or just basic tune up problems ?" OH and I have done 'a few' turbo boat motors' over the past 3 decades. BUT ! I've only done 3 motors with the "ball bearing turbos" and I want to learn all about the NEW STUFF.
    Last edited by GFINISHLINE; 01-29-2010 at 08:08 PM.

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    New here Beer:30's Avatar
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    From what I have read, there is something about the methanol only being NOTICEABLY worthwhile in DIESEL apps. Something about the meth attaching itself to the diesel - specifically. The meth burned completely, and, thus, being attached to the "fuel" it makes the diesel fuel burn completely. Thus, more power in ADDITION to the IAT drop.

    So, where the meth (washer fluid), and water were not much different on a GAS motor, I HEAR/READ that diesel specifically makes better use of meth than straight water. I have not tried either, so I can't confirm. Just a tidbit I learned in my research of whether or not to water/meth the truck or not. So far, I haven't.
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
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    LP-25.com Infomaniac's Avatar
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    Isnt washer fluid a high % of methanol?
    If For Some Reason I Do Something Worthy Of Recognition. God Provided The Ability And Deserves The Credit.


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    mo balls than $cents$ IMPATIENT 1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infomaniac View Post
    Isnt washer fluid a high % of methanol?
    depends on where ya get it, some has methyl alcohol, some has isopropol alcohol and the % changes with the temp ratings. i picked up 5gallons of 0* on sale the other day at walmart for a buck a gallon(yeah, cheaper than distilled water) and its "supposed" to be 50% methyl alcohol, 50% water.

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    New here Beer:30's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPATIENT 1 View Post
    depends on where ya get it, some has methyl alcohol, some has isopropol alcohol and the % changes with the temp ratings. i picked up 5gallons of 0* on sale the other day at walmart for a buck a gallon(yeah, cheaper than distilled water) and its "supposed" to be 50% methyl alcohol, 50% water.
    The higher concentration of meth is the "-20" stuff. The "0*" is 50/50, like you said. The -20 just has more meth for lower temps.
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    EFI is the wave of the future. There can be no denying it. Electronics have been on the leading edge of our entire lives. Not only os the magneto dead, but the standard issue CDI is wavering. Its all about total fuel, air AND spark control. Anybody that thinks its not has their head up their ass.


    2001 SleekCraft 30' Heritage SSB, open-bow mid-cuddy. 496HO / Bravo-I.

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    Water/meth injection came into being during WWII, for fighters. The engineers knew that water did a better job, but they had to add meth to keep it from freezing. For many years, people assumed the meth was added for more HP.




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    Quote Originally Posted by DMOORE View Post
    Water/meth injection came into being during WWII, for fighters. The engineers knew that water did a better job, but they had to add meth to keep it from freezing. For many years, people assumed the meth was added for more HP.




    Darrell.
    YOU ARE CORRECT SIR ! The 'meth' or 'eth' mixes/blends with the water (H2O) and is not utilized at any of the temps used in moderate supercharged/turbo GASOLINE cars, trucks or boats, near sea level. The H2O turns to steam under the 'inlet temps or temps and pressures', and the alcohol just "goes along for the ride". (unburnt) My question (to myself) has always been: "Where is the point of loss with water injection?" "More water = less air/fuel", and so at what point is cooling better than more fuel being passed thru the motor ? Every drop of H2O displaces fuel in the intake stream, and cylinder volume. (MFI, EFI, or carb) In turbo systems, I look at 'exhaust pressures VS intake boost numbers' and where I get my best ratio. "Max boost is not always the most power".

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    Senior Member EVILFORCE's Avatar
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    Water injection keep the motor clean as well. No carbon build up to make the fuel go off before it should. For you smart guys I should have said pre- ignition.
    No Fool Like A Old Fool is there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPATIENT 1 View Post
    saw this post on yellowbullet and thought it held some pretty good info:

    Re: Single S480 (80mm) Turbo on 347, how fast are you going?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    No intercooler. I use water injection to prevent detonation with pump gas and it also cools the charge ~60 degrees.

    Now let me get some shit started--

    I tested seperately on chassis dyno with straight alcohol, water, and washer fluid.

    Water gave best HP and lowest intake temp.

    Washer fluid did nearly as well as water. Within 5 degrees IAT and no difference in HP

    On straight alcohol the AFR looked better, but intake temps very high +45 degrees over water, HP was 35 lower.

    Fixed the AFR with tune adjustment and now run only washer fluid. I would run plain water, but distilled water costs nearly same as washer fluid and I like having the blue color should I get a leak.

    I mentioned my findings to an engineering friend who works with boiler systems and he started talking about latency of steam and how water can absorb 10 times more heat by weight than alcohol. So I guess it doesn't matter which liquid feels cooler on your skin, absorbtion of heat is more important than evaporation cooling in my engine.

    Most "experts" will argue with me about this, but you can't change physics
    I just posted this on the yellow bullet as well.

    Guys, I've also done countless tests using washer fluid, pure water, pure alcohol and can tell you alcohol is going to allow you to get a better reduction in IAT's. Your example above is convincing to many but its missing one thing. Jetting. I can tell from your results your jetting wasn't changed when you ran different mixtures.

    I've did this same exact test two years ago. You have to double your jetting when you go from 50/50 to pure alcohol and nearly quadruple it when going from pure water to pure methanol. You can't do a comparison between pure water, pure methanol and 50/50 using the same jet size. Its just not fair. Otherwise you'll get results like you had.

    When you use pure alcohol you have to spray a lot of it. Unlike water, your not limited to how much you can spray into the engine. Its a fuel and will burn as part of the air fuel mix. Its just a matter of being able to tune around it and re-correcting air fuel. Water doesn't burn. Spray to much water and you can't lite off the air fuel mix and the engine will bog and lose power. And there's no way to tune around it either. You either have to run smaller jets or put alcohol in the mix to get rid of the bog.

    Also, considering this is a non-intercooled set up. The 60 degree drop in IATs you mentioned isn't that low. Indicating you were running small jets for this combination. My last Mustang running a non-intercooled Vortech at 11 psi went from 220 degree IAT's to 135 degree's using windshield washer fluid. 70% water, 30% methanol. Thats a 85 degree drop. Using pure methanol and triple the jetting. My IAT's dropped down as low as 112 degree's.

    This greater drop in IAT's was simply due to the fact that I was spraying trible the amount as I was when spraying washer fluid. Went from a single 9 GPH nozzle on washer fluid to dual 14's GPH nozzles on pure methanol.

    If you guys have questions on water methanol injection feel free to ask. I have over three years of experiance working closely with it everyday. I have literally set up and worked with over 1500 customers. Many of which have stayed in contact and followed their results as well.

    Rodney

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer:30 View Post
    The higher concentration of meth is the "-20" stuff. The "0*" is 50/50, like you said. The -20 just has more meth for lower temps.
    -20 windshield washer fluid has more methanol in it then washer fluid good rated for "0" degree's. I believe washer fluid rated for zero degree's has roughly 15% methanol. Its not 50/50 water and alcohol.

    Rodney

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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPATIENT 1 View Post
    depends on where ya get it, some has methyl alcohol, some has isopropol alcohol and the % changes with the temp ratings. i picked up 5gallons of 0* on sale the other day at walmart for a buck a gallon(yeah, cheaper than distilled water) and its "supposed" to be 50% methyl alcohol, 50% water.
    Pull up the MSDS sheet online for the washer fluid you bought. It has 15% or less methanol in it. Buy the negative -20 stuff. It has 30-35% methanol depending on the brand.

    Rodney

    For more information on the various type of fluids you can run in your water methanol injection system. Click on the image below.



    http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...icle_info.html


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    mo balls than $cents$ IMPATIENT 1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AIS View Post
    Pull up the MSDS sheet online for the washer fluid you bought. It has 15% or less methanol in it. Buy the negative -20 stuff. It has 30-35% methanol depending on the brand.

    Rodney

    For more information on the various type of fluids you can run in your water methanol injection system. Click on the image below.



    http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...icle_info.html

    thanx for the link rodney!

    Dare to be different, if it turns out great you can claim you planned it that way.

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