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opinions please

  1. #1
    Senior Member jetboatperformance's Avatar
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    Default opinions please

    These are some facts: MK4 BBC 10qt pan,HP/HV oil pump,20/20 iron crank, Clevite brgs ,"reconditioned rods" , mild flat tappet hyd, low compression single carb thru hull exaust "A" impeller deal, 20 ft open bow family boat Engine had standard cam breakin by us then after a couple hrs , customer ran boat a few hrs last season, got the cursory free QC check and oil and filter change change from us. At 5.7hrs (roughly the equivelant of 250 miles) Customer hears a knock, trailers and returns it it we tear it down looks perfect except it spun and "piggy backed" #3 rod brg The #3 rod is done so is the crank .metal particals thruout oiling system so a complete tear down and rebuild is in order The short block builder/machine shop says the customer "overrevved the motor" ?? to cause this and he has no responsibility (says he found two other rods "egg shaped" as well , theres no overheat , no external leaks , no lack of lube , no blueing or discoloration. I think I know what took place here curious what everyone else thinks , the court of "public opinion" Thanks in advance Tom

    *btw despite the fact the motor was well beyond our written warranty we are fixing it gratis
    #3 rod insert and #4 (left) for comparison

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  3. #2
    Gone
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    Gee the standard reply by machine shops here is always detonation. They use that word for everything.
    Carry on

  4. #3
    Some guy obnoxious001's Avatar
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    Torque the caps on any rods that appear to still be good and measure them for round (and size while you are at it).

    Also, if there are any rod bearings that still look good enough to measure, I would check and see if you can figure out what kind of clearance they had.

    What kind of rod bolts?

    Your shop did the oil change, guess what came out at that time looked fine? Since we have talked several times before, I will assume you used good oil and filter.

    You aren't keeping anything from us,, like the cam fell apart or something?

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  6. #4
    Senior Member jetboatperformance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obnoxious001 View Post
    Torque the caps on any rods that appear to still be good and measure them for round (and size while you are at it).

    Also, if there are any rod bearings that still look good enough to measure, I would check and see if you can figure out what kind of clearance they had.

    What kind of rod bolts?

    Your shop did the oil change, guess what came out at that time looked fine? Since we have talked several times before, I will assume you used good oil and filter.

    You aren't keeping anything from us,, like the cam fell apart or something?
    Barry ,Not holding back No other damage here but happy to fill in the blanks if I left something out , we run these in with premium oils and ZDP additives also use Wix or KN filters btw the "other deal is fixed we'll talk tommorow on it )

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    Senior Member GT Jets's Avatar
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    #4 Rod bearing looks funny, not funny haha, funny queer....LOL

    any idea what clearances were used on the original machine work?, Looks loose to me at a glance.

    I'll give you a big HMMMMMMM...Also, any idea of the rod side clearances and what do the mains look like, guessing OK with some signs of debris from the failed rod...
    GT


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    Put a 300 on the back of it, Flywheel it and a nosecone. $15,000 later you'll have a 65 mph pile of shit......

  8. #6
    Senior Member lbhsbz's Avatar
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    #4 rod big end is not round or the crank pin is not round...consequently, clearance was variable as the crank turned. those look just like the bearings I used to pull out of my VW GTI after a race weekend before I resized the rods....they were egg shaped.

  9. #7
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    I had a similar issue happen to me.....

    I had an engine "professionally" built and it ran GREAT for 100 hours.

    I pulled it to switch to AFR heads and figured as long as I had it out to freshen up the bottom end even though the bearings didn't look ALL that bad....

    I used the EXACT same brand and part # bearings and torqued the rods to the SAME spec the original "builder" did........(unfortunately I didn't plastigauge it though)

    After 3 hours on the dyno it looked like this....



    ...spun 6 rod bearings.....

    According to my "new" machine shop, the original "builder" ommited some step in the resizing process so when I torqued the rods again they were not round any more....




    Doug

  10. #8
    Senior Member lbhsbz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatally Insane View Post
    I had a similar issue happen to me.....

    I had an engine "professionally" built and it ran GREAT for 100 hours.

    I pulled it to switch to AFR heads and figured as long as I had it out to freshen up the bottom end even though the bearings didn't look ALL that bad....

    I used the EXACT same brand and part # bearings and torqued the rods to the SAME spec the original "builder" did........(unfortunately I didn't plastigauge it though)

    After 3 hours on the dyno it looked like this....



    ...spun 6 rod bearings.....

    According to my "new" machine shop, the original "builder" ommited some step in the resizing process so when I torqued the rods again they were not round any more....




    Doug
    Yup. Some rods like to change shape when you loosen and retorque them. My old VW was this way. The rods woud be fine for ever if you never tore it down, but as soon as you loosened/retorqued, they'd change shape. I've run into it on a set of ebay H-beam SBC rods too...they went about 0.0007 out of round after a loosen/retorque. Always measure....measure measure measure. you don't know if it's screwed up unless you check it.

  11. #9
    Senior Member jetboatperformance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lbhsbz View Post
    #4 rod big end is not round or the crank pin is not round...consequently, clearance was variable as the crank turned. those look just like the bearings I used to pull out of my VW GTI after a race weekend before I resized the rods....they were egg shaped.
    Pat I'm starting to lean that way , when he returned the repaired Short block yesterday he said "I found two other rods big end "egg shaped " and advanced the "owner over rev" accusation. This a motor that will never see 5k unless airborn (and thats unlikley) Were questioning just how and what he uses to resize rods Thnaks for the input so far everyone Tom

  12. #10
    Senior Member lbhsbz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetboatperformance View Post
    Pat I'm starting to lean that way , when he returned the repaired Short block yesterday he said "I found two other rods big end "egg shaped " and advanced the "owner over rev" accusation. This a motor that will never see 5k unless airborn (and thats unlikley) Were questioning just how and what he uses to resize rods Thnaks for the input so far everyone Tom
    With the price of new 5140 rods, why would anyone resize stock BBC rods? Put new rods in it and probably a crank based on those bearings.

  13. #11
    Some guy obnoxious001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obnoxious001 View Post
    Torque the caps on any rods that appear to still be good and measure them for round (and size while you are at it).

    Also, if there are any rod bearings that still look good enough to measure, I would check and see if you can figure out what kind of clearance they had.

    What kind of rod bolts?

    Your shop did the oil change, guess what came out at that time looked fine? Since we have talked several times before, I will assume you used good oil and filter.

    You aren't keeping anything from us,, like the cam fell apart or something?
    Quote Originally Posted by jetboatperformance View Post
    Pat I'm starting to lean that way , when he returned the repaired Short block yesterday he said "I found two other rods big end "egg shaped " and advanced the "owner over rev" accusation. This a motor that will never see 5k unless airborn (and thats unlikley) Were questioning just how and what he uses to resize rods Thnaks for the input so far everyone Tom
    That was my point in suggesting you check rods to see if they were round. I don't know that you can tell for sure, but was thinking they were not round in the first place.

  14. #12
    gn7
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    Rods not properly re-sized, not enough crush, not torqued to the same specs as the re-size, cheap ass aftermarket import bolts the mass re-sizers are using, take your pick. Quality rod re-sizing is a lost art except at places that manufacture rods like Carrillo and Oliver. Its worse than line boring in some respects. Very few shops are doing it in house and they just purchase re-manufactured rods. I would almost always rather run used rods as is, after checking than run a re-maunfactured rod. A new set of Scat SS rods or Eagle SIR rods would have been a better choice. If you don't mind me asking JBP, why did this motor come from another shop. Did the customer bring it in or do you do business with this shop on a regular basis. When your installing some one elses stuff, its pretty tough to put your ass on the line. I seriously doubt that rig was over reved.



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  15. #13
    Senior Member jetboatperformance's Avatar
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    GN , used this guy off and on for some machining services , have known him 30 years not likely we will again , he was relocating his shop last summer , mistakes get made my customer gets a fresh motor from us N/C, just wanted opinions on the failure we belive the machine shop has an obligation to participate Tom

  16. #14
    Senior Member lbhsbz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetboatperformance View Post
    GN , used this guy off and on for some machining services , have known him 30 years not likely we will again , he was relocating his shop last summer , mistakes get made my customer gets a fresh motor from us N/C, just wanted opinions on the failure we belive the machine shop has an obligation to participate Tom
    Probably the same guy that magged my heads huh?

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