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I'm going to Whip my 540

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    Senior Member Cdog's Avatar
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    Default I'm going to Whip my 540

    I bought the whipple 3300 on parts spam. I need a wire harness, injectors and computer. I'd rather go with the Accel system over a factory merc ecu for adjust ability. Currently I have the Holley marine throttle body system. It's worked great but it's not sequential.

    Engine is long rod 540, Dart big M block, Callies dragon slayer crank, luniti I beam rods, need to swap pistons out to 8.5.1 compression. Heads are edelbrock victor race cnc heads with stainless intake and inconel exhaust. Full roller valve train and girdle.

    Bummer I'm going to loose my serp belt system.

    I'll probably fit and mock the whole thing up this winter then take it to Larry Peto for a hone, balance, assembly and dyno tune.

    Any recommendations? What kind of horse power and reliability are you guy's seeing from this set kind of set up?


    Updated with current pics. Closed cooling is no longer there.





    Last edited by Cdog; 07-07-2010 at 10:04 AM.

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    Senior Member PLACECRAFT20's Avatar
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    I do not know what style serpentine system you have but, mine is from a 454 or 502 mag system. Mine is a 540 with AFR 325cc heads and a 4.0 Whipple. It made 955hp on Dustins dyno. It runs a MEFI 3 computer. I think the 3.3 would do the same. The bottom photo shows in stock form before I painted everything. It runs real well.











    The video of acceleration on the 100mph speedo





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    Senior Member TurboNova's Avatar
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    I can help you with the Accel info or I would also look at the FAST XFI system too. I sell and support both. What type of ignition are you going to run? Distributor? Crank Trigger and distributor?

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    Senior Member Cdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PLACECRAFT20 View Post
    I do not know what style serpentine system you have but, mine is from a 454 or 502 mag system. Mine is a 540 with AFR 325cc heads and a 4.0 Whipple. It made 955hp on Dustins dyno. It runs a MEFI 3 computer. I think the 3.3 would do the same. The bottom photo shows in stock form before I painted everything. It runs real well.











    The video of acceleration on the 100mph speedo





    That's great news. I have the same serp system. Good lookin engine.

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    Senior Member ap67et10's Avatar
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    I think there is some confusion here. The whipple setup is NOT a port efi deal. they have 8 injectors just behind the throttle at the rear of the blower. it injects fuel which goes threw the blower and compressed then into the plenum to be dispersed. There is ZERO benefit for sequential on a system like that.

    Even if it were port injected, I would then ask the question: How often do you run the boat between 1000-2500 rpm? if you say hardly at all...well then sequential again has almost no benefit to you. By the time you get into the 3000rpm range you have so much fuel injector overlap it basically becomes what a batch fire already is. there is a benefit for idle and very low rpm stuff, but most boats won't ever realize the benefit because they just don't operate in low rpm like a car. Now if you are starting from scratch and really like the FAST system, well then there is no hurt to running sequential. However in your case, you have a system....run it! it will be perfect for the whipple!

    also if i were you I would consider just making your own harness, or modifying the one you have. you have all 8 injectors right next to each other at the rear. all the sensors are right there around the same place....you could easily modify your already existing harness at almost no additional cost. plus at that point you can make it super clean looking.

    also, what compression are you running right now? any consideration into leaving the engine the way it is and running E85?

    Andrew

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    Senior Member Cdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ap67et10 View Post
    I think there is some confusion here. The whipple setup is NOT a port efi deal. they have 8 injectors just behind the throttle at the rear of the blower. it injects fuel which goes threw the blower and compressed then into the plenum to be dispersed. There is ZERO benefit for sequential on a system like that.

    Even if it were port injected, I would then ask the question: How often do you run the boat between 1000-2500 rpm? if you say hardly at all...well then sequential again has almost no benefit to you. By the time you get into the 3000rpm range you have so much fuel injector overlap it basically becomes what a batch fire already is. there is a benefit for idle and very low rpm stuff, but most boats won't ever realize the benefit because they just don't operate in low rpm like a car. Now if you are starting from scratch and really like the FAST system, well then there is no hurt to running sequential. However in your case, you have a system....run it! it will be perfect for the whipple!

    also if i were you I would consider just making your own harness, or modifying the one you have. you have all 8 injectors right next to each other at the rear. all the sensors are right there around the same place....you could easily modify your already existing harness at almost no additional cost. plus at that point you can make it super clean looking.

    also, what compression are you running right now? any consideration into leaving the engine the way it is and running E85?

    Andrew


    Andrew. Thanks for your help. I've never seen one of these systems close up. I was just going to ask where the injectors go? I can see now why the batch system will work fine. I may keep the Holley ecm, harness and wide band O2 if it will work.

    I originally planned to run a procharger blow through system on this engine but ditched those plans when procharger put me on a 3 month back order. We bumped up the compression to 9.5 from 8.5 and settled for a 575 hp NA engine.

    E85 looks interesting but I'm concerned about availability.

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    Senior Member ap67et10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cdog View Post
    Andrew. Thanks for your help. I've never seen one of these systems close up. I was just going to ask where the injectors go? I can see now why the batch system will work fine. I may keep the Holley ecm, harness and wide band O2 if it will work.

    I originally planned to run a procharger blow through system on this engine but ditched those plans when procharger put me on a 3 month back order. We bumped up the compression to 9.5 from 8.5 and settled for a 575 hp NA engine.

    E85 looks interesting but I'm concerned about availability.

    what are the 2 pulley sets you are getting with the blower? what kind of boost numbers?

    my procharged 502 is running right at 8.8:1 static. i have 2 tunes i'm setting up, one on E85 that will run about 17lbs of boost. and a 9lbs setup that will run on 91. Im running a water to air intercooler and should be just fine on 91 with that setup. I would think 9.5 with 6lbs or so (my guess you have a 6-7 and 10-11ish pound setups??) with your intercooled whipple would be good for little mix of gas and av gas or race gas. or of course the e85 would get it done with both setups.

    You are in a great place because you don't have injectors yet. if you get injectors that will handle your max boost and power output on E85, and E85 compatible, then you can easily load up a new tune to the ecu and run either when 1 or the other is available to you. Some don't like this idea, but its way more cost effective than trying to get some new slugs, disassemble, rebalance, hone, rebuild.....way too expensive if you ask me. plus E85 with 9.5 and 12 lbs of boost would make that thing scream!

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    Senior Member ap67et10's Avatar
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    looks like you are in Scottsdale?? if so, sure looks like your golden!

    http://e85vehicles.com/e85-arizona.htm
    Last edited by ap67et10; 07-07-2010 at 10:53 AM.

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    Senior Member Cdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ap67et10 View Post
    what are the 2 pulley sets you are getting with the blower? what kind of boost numbers?

    my procharged 502 is running right at 8.8:1 static. i have 2 tunes i'm setting up, one on E85 that will run about 17lbs of boost. and a 9lbs setup that will run on 91. Im running a water to air intercooler and should be just fine on 91 with that setup. I would think 9.5 with 6lbs or so (my guess you have a 6-7 and 10-11ish pound setups??) with your intercooled whipple would be good for little mix of gas and av gas or race gas. or of course the e85 would get it done with both setups.

    You are in a great place because you don't have injectors yet. if you get injectors that will handle your max boost and power output on E85, and E85 compatible, then you can easily load up a new tune to the ecu and run either when 1 or the other is available to you. Some don't like this idea, but its way more cost effective than trying to get some new slugs, disassemble, rebalance, hone, rebuild.....way too expensive if you ask me. plus E85 with 9.5 and 12 lbs of boost would make that thing scream!


    I really like the idea of it. I guess I'll need to speak to someone at Peto or Whipple. I just wouldn't want to get stuck somewhere I can't get fuel.


    So E85 is cheaper but you use more of it?
    Last edited by Cdog; 07-07-2010 at 11:43 AM.

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    Senior Member TurboNova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ap67et10 View Post
    I think there is some confusion here. The whipple setup is NOT a port efi deal. they have 8 injectors just behind the throttle at the rear of the blower. it injects fuel which goes threw the blower and compressed then into the plenum to be dispersed. There is ZERO benefit for sequential on a system like that.

    Even if it were port injected, I would then ask the question: How often do you run the boat between 1000-2500 rpm? if you say hardly at all...well then sequential again has almost no benefit to you. By the time you get into the 3000rpm range you have so much fuel injector overlap it basically becomes what a batch fire already is. there is a benefit for idle and very low rpm stuff, but most boats won't ever realize the benefit because they just don't operate in low rpm like a car. Now if you are starting from scratch and really like the FAST system, well then there is no hurt to running sequential. However in your case, you have a system....run it! it will be perfect for the whipple!

    also if i were you I would consider just making your own harness, or modifying the one you have. you have all 8 injectors right next to each other at the rear. all the sensors are right there around the same place....you could easily modify your already existing harness at almost no additional cost. plus at that point you can make it super clean looking.

    also, what compression are you running right now? any consideration into leaving the engine the way it is and running E85?

    Andrew
    I don't really agree Andrew. Those throttle bodies are manufactured here in Havasu at Bernie's machine shop. Yes they have 8 injectors in the front but depending on what injectors you are using and how big they are you can benifit with sequential because of the ability to use less fuel during cruise and start up. I get all my blower guys and for sure the 671 roots style to go sequential because of the idle, cruise and starting fuel problems just go away. I always hear that there is 0 benifit making a blower sequential EFI but not the case at all.

    With bank to bank you fire 4 injectors each 180 degrees of the crank rotation, with sequential it is 1 injector for every 180. This cuts fuel consumption a bunch plus makes tuning bigger injectors easier at low throttle angles or engine speeds. Yes, at WOT there isn't much difference and on a boat you are there quite a bit. It does make a difference even above 3000 rpms at lower throttle also. How much do these boats idle and cruise? A bunch really.

    I am assuming it is a Holley commander 950, which at best is a marginal ECU for something like this. It works yes but not as well as the other two talked about. I just tuned a Cobra deck boat with twin 525 NA engines built by Pro Marine a couple of weeks ago. Tom called and we engine dynoed both engines then I went out on the lake with the owner and tuned them some more. Yes, the ECU works ok, I have tuned many of them but my opinion is they are better suited for something around 500-600 hp in a low perf boat or car. It is not the best ECU for a boosted application.

    I would agree with the E85, it is awesome and a good fuel to run instead of race fuel. The Fast XFI has a cool flex fuel feature you can run and switch from E85 and back to pump gas or race fuel on the fly. Even mixing some fuel if needed. It will switch the tune as needed to keep the fuel curve correct. The ECU reads the fuel contect from a GM flex fuel sensor in the return line, so if it is E75 today and E90 tomrrow, it will adjust the mixture accordingly.
    Last edited by TurboNova; 07-07-2010 at 05:56 PM.

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    Senior Member Cdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboNova View Post
    I don't really agree Andrew. Those throttle bodies are manufactured here in Havasu at Bernie's machine shop. Yes they have 8 injectors in the front but depending on what injectors you are using and how big they are you can benifit with sequential because of the ability to use less fuel during cruise and start up. I get all my blower guys and for sure the 671 roots style to go sequential because of the idle, cruise and starting fuel problems just go away. I always hear that there is 0 benifit making a blower sequential EFI but not the case at all.

    With bank to bank you fire 4 injectors each 180 degrees of the crank rotation, with sequential it is 1 injector for every 180. This cuts fuel consumption a bunch plus makes tuning bigger injectors easier at low throttle angles or engine speeds. Yes, at WOT there isn't much difference and on a boat you are there quite a bit. It does make a difference even above 3000 rpms at lower throttle also. How much do these boats idle and cruise? A bunch really.

    I am assuming it is a Holley commander 950, which at best is a marginal ECU for something like this. It works yes but not as well as the other two talked about. I just tuned a Cobra deck boat with twin 525 NA engines built by Pro Marine a couple of weeks ago. Tom called and we engine dynoed both engines then I went out on the lake with the owner and tuned them some more. Yes, the ECU works ok, I have tuned many of them but my opinion is they are better suited for something around 500-600 hp in a low perf boat or car. It is not the best ECU for a boosted application.

    I would agree with the E85, it is awesome and a good fuel to run instead of race fuel. The Fast XFI has a cool flex fuel feature you can run and switch from E85 and back to pump gas or race fuel on the fly. Even mixing some fuel if needed. It will switch the tune as needed to keep the fuel curve correct. The ECU reads the fuel contect from a GM flex fuel sensor in the return line, so if it is E75 today and E90 tomrrow, it will adjust the mixture accordingly.


    Excellent post. The Fast system sounds impressive. If I can run the E85 with my current pistons at 9.5 compression. Then change the settings for 91 or better if I'm at Powell or somewhere it's not available. Very cool!

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    Senior Member ap67et10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboNova View Post
    I don't really agree Andrew. Those throttle bodies are manufactured here in Havasu at Bernie's machine shop. Yes they have 8 injectors in the front but depending on what injectors you are using and how big they are you can benifit with sequential because of the ability to use less fuel during cruise and start up. I get all my blower guys and for sure the 671 roots style to go sequential because of the idle, cruise and starting fuel problems just go away. I always hear that there is 0 benifit making a blower sequential EFI but not the case at all.

    With bank to bank you fire 4 injectors each 180 degrees of the crank rotation, with sequential it is 1 injector for every 180. This cuts fuel consumption a bunch plus makes tuning bigger injectors easier at low throttle angles or engine speeds. Yes, at WOT there isn't much difference and on a boat you are there quite a bit. It does make a difference even above 3000 rpms at lower throttle also. How much do these boats idle and cruise? A bunch really.

    I am assuming it is a Holley commander 950, which at best is a marginal ECU for something like this. It works yes but not as well as the other two talked about. I just tuned a Cobra deck boat with twin 525 NA engines built by Pro Marine a couple of weeks ago. Tom called and we engine dynoed both engines then I went out on the lake with the owner and tuned them some more. Yes, the ECU works ok, I have tuned many of them but my opinion is they are better suited for something around 500-600 hp in a low perf boat or car. It is not the best ECU for a boosted application.

    I would agree with the E85, it is awesome and a good fuel to run instead of race fuel. The Fast XFI has a cool flex fuel feature you can run and switch from E85 and back to pump gas or race fuel on the fly. Even mixing some fuel if needed. It will switch the tune as needed to keep the fuel curve correct. The ECU reads the fuel contect from a GM flex fuel sensor in the return line, so if it is E75 today and E90 tomrrow, it will adjust the mixture accordingly.

    it seems to me that the only thing sequential offers, is in a large injector application, it allows for a larger tuning window at lower engine speed. (as you stated) sequential allows a slightly more linear fuel delivery, to help prevent puddling in a roots deal....at least thats how i see it. however i doubt that, with time spent fine tuning, they couldn't have almost identical low rpm characteristics. if they just can't be the same, then the engine itself is quite radical, and the injectors are so big, that sequential is a better setup, as it helps inject fuel gradually rather than causing flooding/puddling from the massive injectors spraying 4 at a time. yes?

    I only see this as being primarily beneficial in a NON port setup, with extremely large injectors. However based on what was given with this engine, he's probably looking at (if e85 is the fuel) about 96lbs injectors... you have seen issues with this size of an injector??

    even my 502 which has 135lb injectors spraying 1 bank per 360* is at about 6-8ms at idle. i can change the setting so i have 2 events per 360* which would be borderline at the 3-4ms range. however my injectors are almost 30% larger than what he would need. in my case it might be a bit more touchy, and difficult to get a good idle tune on my engine with batch, but with 25-30% less injector, I can't imagine all that much difficulty getting a good tune. Is this not your experience? what size injectors have you seen cause difficulty tuning low rpm with batch fire?

    again, i see how the tuning window is widened, however in my opinion, the cost to convert just isn't worth it.....then again i run a $250 megasquirt system, and do everything myself. Not many people would spend the time i do. and would rather spend more money to make things just a little easier.

    I see your point with sequential, but it just doesn't seem there is a cost benefit in this application, however i could be wrong. (as my idea of cost may be way different than others)

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    Senior Member TurboNova's Avatar
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    The sequential is for sure better in an application with either size injector. From what I have found anything above a 55 or 65 injector works better. Most of the megasquirt guys down play sequential because megasquirt does not do sequential. The cost isn't much if your ecu already does it.

    They can't be the same no matter how much you fine tune it because you are spraying twice as fuel during the same engine cycle.

    For example I have a small block 406 turbo engine it makes 1800hp it has 160# injectors 30 psi boost port injected. I could get it to idle ok in bank to bank and ran it that way for several years but switched to sequential and will now idle much better and the car runs faster. You also have the benifit of less duty cycle if you are on the edge of what the injector will do.

    Most of my engines run in the 1-2ms range at idle.

    If you think 135# injectors isn't toward the extreme end what is? The larger the injector the longer the dead time to open and the harder to control at idle. Sequential just seems to make all these problems go away.

    The Fast XFI has the ability to store 5 different tunes so a guy could also have a pump gas, race fuel or e85
    Last edited by TurboNova; 07-07-2010 at 09:30 PM.

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    Senior Member ap67et10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboNova View Post
    The sequential is for sure better in an application with either size injector. From what I have found anything above a 55 or 65 injector works better. Most of the megasquirt guys down play sequential because megasquirt does not do sequential. The cost isn't much if your ecu already does it.

    They can't be the same no matter how much you fine tune it because you are spraying twice as fuel during the same engine cycle.

    For example I have a small block 406 turbo engine it makes 1800hp it has 160# injectors 30 psi boost port injected. I could get it to idle ok in bank to bank and ran it that way for several years but switched to sequential and will now idle much better and the car runs faster. You also have the benifit of less duty cycle if you are on the edge of what the injector will do.

    Most of my engines run in the 1-2ms range at idle.

    If you think 135# injectors isn't toward the extreme end what is? The larger the injector the longer the dead time to open and the harder to control at idle. Sequential just seems to make all these problems go away.

    The Fast XFI has the ability to store 5 different tunes so a guy could also have a pump gas, race fuel or e85

    I must be missing something here.... how does a sequential spray less fuel then batch? sequential would be 1 injector event with 1 ignition even per cylinder...yes?

    so 4 injector events for every 360 degrees....just like a batch setup? right? I can change my setup from 1,2 4 or 8 events per power cycle (720*) and it simply changes the ms time each injector is open. but if i spray 4 injectors at one time at TDC for 5ms. and you spray 1 injector every 90* for 5ms, how do you spray less fuel after 360* of crank movement? Also, if what you typed is correct, saying 1 injector event every 180* for sequential...how can it do this?

    You have far more experience with aftermarket and high performance EFI than I do, but this isn't making sense. The only way I can see sequential being that much better, would be if its more efficient in delivering fuel, and preventing it from puddling, as I said above in my last post. which would then mean that you can program it (larger tuning window) to inject less fuel and equate to the same AFR as the batch would, however the batch would require more ms open time because of the loss of efficiency. but if I am wrong, and efficiency is NOT why sequential is better....then how? how can you inject less fuel? Also, how can you have less duty cycle, unless we are talking about efficiency? please explain these things, because it appears I must be missing something.

    I'm really playing devils advocate here, I like sequential and will likely upgrade in the future, but I do think about cost and I do pretty much everything myself when it comes to this stuff. I also really like MegaSquirt, but i'm not ignorant. I don't think MS is the greatest thing ever invented, but there is a cost to benefit scale, and MS fits very well into where I find the scale balancing out....for me. However I know batch is at a disadvantage and this can be very noticeable with performance engines and large injectors when it comes to idle quality, no doubt, but i'm trying to see how what you are saying is what is actually happening. So please, explain.

    Andrew
    Last edited by ap67et10; 07-07-2010 at 10:59 PM.

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