Inside a .937 key way lifter
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Inside a .937 key way lifter

  1. #1
    B1 Racing cs19's Avatar
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    Default Inside a .937 key way lifter

    I've diseceted a .937 lifter just to see exactly how they oil and whats goin on inside, this is an older lifter I had sitting around, I took it out because it was going away, pretty obvious why too. I destroyed the lifter as they are not rebuildable but I knew that would happen going in. The amount of machine work in one of these is unreal, they get $115 for one lifter, made by LSM.

    Here is the a pic of the guts, I'll add more as I get more time tonight and over the weekend, I found it sort of interesting.

    The piece with the cup in it is aluminum and its actually a manifold for diverteing oil to all sorts of different places, 6 places actually. The way the oil gets to the axle is pretty cool, Ill post more pics and stuff later.



    CS

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    steelcomp was here
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    Cool!
    Is that one of the original lifters from your engine, or have you been through a set by now?

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    B1 Racing cs19's Avatar
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    I dont know if you guys will find this interesting or not but I thought it was kinda cool.

    In this pic youll see where the oil enters the side of the lifter body. The aluminum piece is pressed into the main body and the holes line up so the oil gets into the aluminum part where its then directing the oil to certain places. The red lines obviously indicate where the oil travels. Pretty sure the alum part is 7075 aluminum. Other pics below will show how the axle gets oiled.



    This pic shows the bigtime wear on the axle (this lifter was dying) and shows where the pressed in pin goes through the axle which is now broken from when I pressed it apart. Notice its a round pin pressed into the axle but it has a flat machined into the side of the round pin, this is where the oil travels to the axle. Also shows the aluminum piece again and some of the oiling holes, you can see how the pushrod gets oil through one of the holes in the aluminum piece. you can also see the steel cup pressed into the aluminum piece where the pushrod tip goes.




    This is the aluminum piece upside down. The hole in the center is a fairly small hole and is an oiler for the roller. The part that is hogged out is where the aluminum piece locates onto the pin that travels down the side of the lifter and goes through the axle, this indexes the aluminum piece correctly so everything lines up correctly. That pin (in the next pic) is the reason these are not rebuildable, When you press the lifter apart you break that pin becasue it goes through the axle, its impossible to get apart as far as I can tell. I did read online somewhere that Patterson was offering a service to rebuild a non rebuildable keyway lifter at one time, I dont know anything about that though.



    This shows the main body and the pin that goes through the lifter and axle and shows where the oil goes down the side of the pin, red circle obviously.That pin goes through the axle and even into the lower section below the axle. The hogged out notch in the aluminum piece locates onto that pin for indexing.



    Here is a pic of the axle. The black lines represent the pin going through the axle and the brown is the oil traveling down its little galley on the side of the pin then it follows the red line to oil the needle bearings and axle. Notice the wear is exactly opposite of the oiling hole Maybe they should oil both sides? They are only oiling the side that sees the load and I sure hope the guy assembling these is paying close attention cause that pin could easily be installed upside down and oil the wrong side. The engine these came out of had alot of issues so that wear you see could be from other issues too, the camshaft wore in a similar fashion but thats been resolved and thats not what this thread is about. I've got multiple seasons of river use and racing on my current lifters which are the same as these and I'm now running a .900 lift cam so I'm tottally happy with these. I just wanted to post up the internals of these for you guys to see as I thought it was kind of interesting. Id really like to see how a comparable Jesel looks inside or how any other lifters look inside for that matter.


    Last edited by cs19; 08-27-2010 at 08:58 PM.

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    Senior Member Hass828's Avatar
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    Thanks for the pic-info, kind of explains why these damn things are so expensive.
    "if we keep doing it the same way we always do..we will always get the same results"
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    i'm back!! 1QuickCP's Avatar
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    Good pics and write up !! Thanks
    I have had amazing life with the new isky rollerless lifter in .850+ lift stuff BTW.. 400+runs with no wear @ 1100 open pressure. Ran the Jesels before that .

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    Senior Member Ahsumtoy's Avatar
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    It would be interesting to compare the jessels to other top line manufactures lifters. Maybe we should send our old lifters to Chris so he could do the research for us.

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    I'm No Expert Shaun's Avatar
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    Some of the pics are kinda dark. that pin, is it pressed in from the bottom (cam side) of the lifter? is that why it cant come out? Pretty cool to see the inside parts of a high end lifter
    Last edited by Shaun; 08-28-2010 at 09:36 AM.

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    Distinguished Member David 519's Avatar
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    Very cool Chris. Like you said, I find the wear in the unloaded section really surprising. The wear looks like inadaquate oil combined with load. Obviously you wouldn't expect much load in that region. The single inlet should be more than adaquate for oil supply, but the oil may be getting very hot due to the localized pressure, deminishing the lubrication properties by the time it gets through the loaded zone.... But you said you had other motor issues and not having any problems with the current set, so it's unlikely any type of design issue. Thanks for posting...
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    ....... David 519 is 100% correct........

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    .....I think people forget that racing is supposed to fun. Losing shouldn't be discouraging it should motivate you work on your pile to make it faster.....

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    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
    Some of the pics are kinda dark. that pin, is it pressed in from the bottom (cam side) of the lifter? is that why it cant come out? Pretty cool to see the inside parts of a high end lifter
    Shaun, Shaun, Shaun. I believe the pin comes in from the top, under the PR seat, and dead ends with no opening from the bottom. therefor the pin is captive under the PR seat and the dead end. So rebuild them, you would have to drill a hole in the bottom of the lifter, dead inline with the pin, so you could drive the pin back out.



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    Last edited by gn7; 08-28-2010 at 10:40 AM.

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    steelcomp was here
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    Quote Originally Posted by David 519 View Post
    Very cool Chris. Like you said, I find the wear in the unloaded section really surprising. The wear looks like inadaquate oil combined with load. Obviously you wouldn't expect much load in that region. The single inlet should be more than adaquate for oil supply, but the oil may be getting very hot due to the localized pressure, deminishing the lubrication properties by the time it gets through the loaded zone.... But you said you had other motor issues and not having any problems with the current set, so it's unlikely any type of design issue. Thanks for posting...
    Remember that anaything that's happening in the valve train is happening at the lifter. That "unloaded" side gets just as hammered from valve train harmonics as the non loaded side and has the least amount of oil protection.
    Just a thought.

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    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcomp View Post
    Remember that anaything that's happening in the valve train is happening at the lifter. That "unloaded" side gets just as hammered from valve train harmonics as the non loaded side and has the least amount of oil protection.
    Just a thought.
    And being unloaded, the harmanics are able to attack it much more so. I can only imagine the harmoncs of spring in a state of hysterics on a unloaded lifter. Specially a bunch of lose needles



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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcomp View Post
    Remember that anaything that's happening in the valve train is happening at the lifter. That "unloaded" side gets just as hammered from valve train harmonics as the non loaded side and has the least amount of oil protection.
    Just a thought.
    You'll have to explain this to me. Just don't see it at that point in the system.

    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    And being unloaded, the harmanics are able to attack it much more so. I can only imagine the harmoncs of spring in a state of hysterics on a unloaded lifter. Specially a bunch of lose needles
    Springs and pushrods are long, spindely and largely undamped systems that respond easily to "harmonics" you speak of. Essentially resonant frequencies within the operating range of the engine. The roller, with bearings and oil pressure will have extremely high resonant frequncies and being loaded with oil, a high degree of damping (the predominant control for a resonant system). Again, don't see it.
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    ....... David 519 is 100% correct........

    Quote Originally Posted by fuelinmyveins82 View Post
    .....I think people forget that racing is supposed to fun. Losing shouldn't be discouraging it should motivate you work on your pile to make it faster.....

  16. #14
    steelcomp was here
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    Quote Originally Posted by David 519 View Post
    You'll have to explain this to me. Just don't see it at that point in the system.



    Springs and pushrods are long, spindely and largely undamped systems that respond easily to "harmonics" you speak of. Essentially resonant frequencies within the operating range of the engine. The roller, with bearings and oil pressure will have extremely high resonant frequncies and being loaded with oil, a high degree of damping (the predominant control for a resonant system). Again, don't see it.
    What other condition is the unloaded side of the axle subject to to cause the wear?

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