Put More Timing To It???
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Put More Timing To It???

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    Super Moderator HammerDown's Avatar
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    Question Put More Timing To It???

    Question > with a BBC 10:1 93-pump gas, 049 iron heads, how much is too much advance?
    If power/RPM's continues to increase from 35* to 38* should I keep sneaking up on total advance to maybe 40*? And also consider a colder plug?

    I would not continue to increase TA if there was no power increase.

    No way to hear detonation, it's all about reading plugs and seeing if RPM increase's at the tach.

    Feedback?
    Thanks Ray
    <img src=http://www.performanceboats.com/gallery/data/500/medium/06-30-11_1234.jpg border=0 alt= />

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    Quote Originally Posted by HammerDown View Post
    Question > with a BBC 10:1 93-pump gas, 049 iron heads, how much is too much advance?
    If power/RPM's continues to increase from 35* to 38* should I keep sneaking up on total advance to maybe 40*? And also consider a colder plug?

    I would not continue to increase TA if there was no power increase.

    No way to hear detonation, it's all about reading plugs and seeing if RPM increase's at the tach.

    Feedback?
    Thanks Ray
    They make stand-alone knock sensor setups now. You could install one of those.....
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    EFI is the wave of the future. There can be no denying it. Electronics have been on the leading edge of our entire lives. Not only os the magneto dead, but the standard issue CDI is wavering. Its all about total fuel, air AND spark control. Anybody that thinks its not has their head up their ass.


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    Super Moderator HammerDown's Avatar
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    Question

    Is this what you're referring to ?
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-8964
    <img src=http://www.performanceboats.com/gallery/data/500/medium/06-30-11_1234.jpg border=0 alt= />

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    New here Beer:30's Avatar
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    Yup. That would be it.
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    EFI is the wave of the future. There can be no denying it. Electronics have been on the leading edge of our entire lives. Not only os the magneto dead, but the standard issue CDI is wavering. Its all about total fuel, air AND spark control. Anybody that thinks its not has their head up their ass.


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    Senior Member miketeast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HammerDown View Post
    Is this what you're referring to ?
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-8964
    might not work well with a roller engine.

    Even the better ones need to be calibrated with a known knock...determined on a dyno or with a det-can like unto this







    put 100shot nitrous on it if you want more HP...much safer than dicking with the timing, especially when moving the distributer in penile graduations on the water, and you right...no more rpm...no more timing...i run mine to where the rpm 'just' starts to drop off....of course i can vary mine from the cocpit, using a modified vacuum advance pod.
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    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by miketeast View Post
    might not work well with a roller engine.

    .
    Can you explain how a roller cam would skew a knock sensor. Many late model cars have knock sensors and roller cams. I agree that it would be best to calibrate the sensor to known false signals. But are you sure a roller is one of the false signals? rollers are "noisier" than a flat tappet?



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    Purple headed member Quickjet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Can you explain how a roller cam would skew a knock sensor. Many late model cars have knock sensors and roller cams. I agree that it would be best to calibrate the sensor to known false signals. But are you sure a roller is one of the false signals? rollers are "noisier" than a flat tappet?
    I was thinking the same thing. I have heard that Solid lifters can throw off a Knock sensor but never a roller cam just because it's of roller design.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quickjet View Post
    I was thinking the same thing. I have heard that Solid lifters can throw off a Knock sensor but never a roller cam just because it's of roller design.
    Evidently, he didn't "ANALYZE" that completely before posting it



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    Quote Originally Posted by HammerDown View Post
    Question > with a BBC 10:1 93-pump gas, 049 iron heads, how much is too much advance?
    If power/RPM's continues to increase from 35* to 38* should I keep sneaking up on total advance to maybe 40*? And also consider a colder plug?

    I would not continue to increase TA if there was no power increase.

    No way to hear detonation, it's all about reading plugs and seeing if RPM increase's at the tach.

    Feedback?
    Thanks Ray
    Without a dyno..that is the way i have been doing it.....set the timing on the conservative side.....mix in some gas with higher octane to give ya
    some room for error and advance it a little at a time until the power noses over...back it up 2 degrees and lock it down...and then check the timing
    so you know where to set it. Note: that method will only work on lower comp. engines.
    I found this system a while ago...it almost stupid proof....incredibly fast
    and simple stand alone install.

    I have never heard of anything that fast..
    it can hear one cylinder knock and by the next time that cylinder has fired it has already taken 2 degrees of timing out...and a nitrous switch too




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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Evidently, he didn't "ANALYZE" that completely before posting it
    I thought it was some kind of joke.?. Didn't take it seriously since it didn't make sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    EFI is the wave of the future. There can be no denying it. Electronics have been on the leading edge of our entire lives. Not only os the magneto dead, but the standard issue CDI is wavering. Its all about total fuel, air AND spark control. Anybody that thinks its not has their head up their ass.


    2001 SleekCraft 30' Heritage SSB, open-bow mid-cuddy. 496HO / Bravo-I.

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    gn7
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    Mikey doesn't joke. Very analitical Only something tells me he didn't think that one all the way thru.



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    Senior Member miketeast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Can you explain how a roller cam would skew a knock sensor. Many late model cars have knock sensors and roller cams. I agree that it would be best to calibrate the sensor to known false signals. But are you sure a roller is one of the false signals? rollers are "noisier" than a flat tappet?

    has to do with the 5- 5.7khz band that the knock will probably show itself matching the rpm that you will run in a jet under load.

    no, it is not the roller cam itself...it is the hot roller cam, and i suppose a solid would be that much worse.

    my hydraulic roller is (was) noiser than the flat hydraulic tappet...the comp x(m/e)(xxx)hr cams are reported by many to be noisey on the sb. I dont think regular car cams are that noisey. I only have a toyota 4cyl to go by. The xe flat tappet hydraulic cam was really smooth...sound like a sewing machine. The custom ground FTH Bullet cam was the same way...smooth...The XM HR sounded like something was wrong. . The lift was not that much different, even at .200 I think the GM ZZ4 engine has the same sound, probably due to the cam profile and the roller rockers/lifters.


    TurboXS makes one that looks interesting...it hooks into the tach wire and has the ability to adapt to engine noise by frequency...calibrated to the rpm (you run it up under no load for the first calibration). I think it is called a knoklite. Ricers think they work. Sensor quality and placement is supposed to be important with these, no surprise.

    As well as looking at the plugs i time like Hondo does. Look for the rpm to stop rising and back it off two degrees. Sometimes it cost 10-15hp, but i feel that there is a safety margin necessary, especially when running river gas and nitrous. I do try to stay with 93 but sometimes all i can get is 89 on the river. I was always amazed when my 4deg retard setup would fail retarded and i would loose so much HP and the engine would sound so much different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by miketeast View Post
    no, it is not the roller cam itself...it is the hot roller cam, and i suppose a solid would be that much worse.

    my hydraulic roller is (was) noiser than the flat hydraulic tappet...the comp x(m/e)(xxx)hr cams are reported by many to be noisey on the sb. I dont think regular car cams are that noisey. I only have a toyota 4cyl to go by. The xe flat tappet hydraulic cam was really smooth...sound like a sewing machine. The custom ground FTH Bullet cam was the same way...smooth...The XM HR sounded like something was wrong. . The lift was not that much different, even at .200 I think the GM ZZ4 engine has the same sound, probably due to the cam profile and the roller rockers/lifters.


    TurboXS makes one that looks interesting...it hooks into the tach wire and has the ability to adapt to engine noise by frequency...calibrated to the rpm (you run it up under no load for the first calibration). I think it is called a knoklite. Ricers think they work. Sensor quality and placement is supposed to be important with these, no surprise.
    Ah - I see. You are meaning aggressive lobe designs slamming the valvetrain around. That makes more sense.

    Although - the LS7 and similar motors have aggressive rollers with knock sensors and don't seem to have a problem. I would imagine the aftermarket and wilder than OEM sticks would make more noise.
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    EFI is the wave of the future. There can be no denying it. Electronics have been on the leading edge of our entire lives. Not only os the magneto dead, but the standard issue CDI is wavering. Its all about total fuel, air AND spark control. Anybody that thinks its not has their head up their ass.


    2001 SleekCraft 30' Heritage SSB, open-bow mid-cuddy. 496HO / Bravo-I.

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    Senior Member miketeast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Mikey doesn't joke. Very analitical Only something tells me he didn't think that one all the way thru.
    i do joke sometimes...i do forget to think things thru sometimes...but i have studied spark knock a great deal. Talked to the people who use and sell the devices. Done the calculations. Listened to the motor with something like the det-can. Reviewed the studies from the WWII aircraft (NACA) when they had to make the most power from shit gas...

    I really believe a knock sensor is a good thing to have...but it has to work without going thru hoops...in a jet one should do things slowly anyway...one thing at a time...and keep reading the plugs. Yes even the old ones...especially with nitrous. If one of the ground straps starts to loose material, or there a speckles...you might be going too far.

    Any thats what i think up to this point. I have been wrong before.
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