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First time trying Methanol

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6K views 45 replies 19 participants last post by  piston in the wind 
#1 ·
Thursday Aug 18
Well I put the Methanol in the tanks and fired it up on the E85 tune.
It ran great as always for a while until the lines were purged out.
I switched the "fuel energy constant" number in the FAST XFI program from .65 for E85 fuel to .43 for Methanol.
It started right up good again and it was a little lean on idle. The O2 sensor reads the methanol just as well as Ethanol.

I richened up the idle and some parts of the map for a minute and it ran good.
Idles just as smooth as Ethanol at 1000 rpm. Great throttle response.
Warmed right up same as ethanol. Didn't run cold like I expected.
Shes ready for the water.

Saturday Aug 20

I ran the boat around for a while today and it ran good on Methanol.
Temp seemed to level off around 140* where Ethanol ran 150*.

After hanging out on the beach for a while other boats were making some passes so as we left I hammered it.
It ran right up against the rev limiter at 7000 rpm and cycled a few times.
The datalog showed WOT for 4 seconds and took it from 30 to 110. Pulled real hard.
I reset the rev limiter to 7500 and tried it again. It still hit the rev limiter. At 7500 rpm it's turning the prop 12000.
The datalog showed 30# boost and that is the limit of the MAP sensor.
Maxxing out the MAP sensor wants to show a fault in the ECU so I have to disable that. :)sphss

I can certainly see the huge HP potential from Methanol.
It's hard to gauge how much fuel I used but it was noticably more than Ethanol.
Got back home and looked at the oil and doesn't look milky at all.
The fumes weren't as near as bad as I thought it was going to be either.

I need to spend a little more time running it and fine tuning the map. I've only got about 15 minutes into retuning from Ethanol to Methanol so far.
It took me a lot longer to pump the fuel out of the tanks than to switch to the Methanol tune.
I'll save this map and be able to run either fuel.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Mark, don't leave the Meth in the tnaks and lines. Flush the entire system running on E85. Even for a short time. The stuff is heel on alum and rubber lines. And it don't long!
Good info between the E85 and straight meth. I would say you brushed the top of the HP capabilities if the fuel. 1000 HP from 281 inches at indy was normal 40+ years ago. the stuff will make power, and live. For gods sake be carefull in that thing. 7500 in that thing is what, 85MPH?:)Unsure

PS, Have I told you I hate you EFI guys lately.:)bit



 
#5 ·
This is one of the grey areas concerning Methanol for me.
I asked 2 others who have run it for years and they said if your running it every week don't worry about leaving the fuel in the lines and tanks.
They both told me they leave it in the tanks and lines all summer.
I've got stainless tanks and braided lines everywhere so I would think those would be compatible.
The fuel rails are aluminum though.
That would add such a huge inconvenience having to drain all that stuff every time out.
I just bought one 55 gal drum so when that's gone it's back to E85 for me. I burned about 14 gallons and went maybe 22 miles yesterday.
I'm trying to make a Methanol program for Ron to get started with and I was curious about running the fuel too. The only negative I can see about it so far is the fuel consumption.

When ever I have seen a methanol powered boat or car at the drags they were running so rich they were spitting alcohol mist out the headers, the fumes were aweful, and their oil looked all milky. I see now it doesn't HAVE to be that way.

I'm concerned about breaking the trans also with this fuel. After last years broken input shaft I had it rebuilt to hold 2000 ft lbs.
I'm sure it's at that number now. The wife has gone for many white knuckle rides in the boat before but she said that was the hardest it ever pulled even hitting the rev limiter.

I really enjoy the challenge of tuning with EFI and being able to change fuels so easy is where EFI really shines.

Another interesting point. I'm still running .035 plug gap on the 5 year old NGK plugs and the LS-2 COP ignition never missed a beat burning all that additional fuel volume.
From what i've read others close the plug gap down to .018 or so for methanol.
 
#15 · (Edited)
This is one of the grey areas concerning Methanol for me.
I asked 2 others who have run it for years and they said if your running it every week don't worry about leaving the fuel in the lines and tanks.
They both told me they leave it in the tanks and lines all summer.
I've got stainless tanks and braided lines everywhere so I would think those would be compatible.
The fuel rails are aluminum though.
That would add such a huge inconvenience having to drain all that stuff every time out.
I just bought one 55 gal drum so when that's gone it's back to E85 for me. I burned about 14 gallons and went maybe 22 miles yesterday.
I'm trying to make a Methanol program for Ron to get started with and I was curious about running the fuel too. The only negative I can see about it so far is the fuel consumption.

When ever I have seen a methanol powered boat or car at the drags they were running so rich they were spitting alcohol mist out the headers, the fumes were aweful, and their oil looked all milky. I see now it doesn't HAVE to be that way.

I'm concerned about breaking the trans also with this fuel. After last years broken input shaft I had it rebuilt to hold 2000 ft lbs.
I'm sure it's at that number now. The wife has gone for many white knuckle rides in the boat before but she said that was the hardest it ever pulled even hitting the rev limiter.

I really enjoy the challenge of tuning with EFI and being able to change fuels so easy is where EFI really shines.

Another interesting point. I'm still running .035 plug gap on the 5 year old NGK plugs and the LS-2 COP ignition never missed a beat burning all that additional fuel volume.
From what i've read others close the plug gap down to .018 or so for methanol.
you can leave the fuel in there longer than a week as long as you seal off your vent on your fuel tank so no moisture is sucked in.from the air it draws water like crazy and then it clouds up. use a upper end lube also. I leave mine in my K boat, and pro stocks for weeks on end but fog the engine down after the weekends
 
#6 ·
I know that you went to the 225 atomizer injectors but running methanol, they might not be big enough. Be careful with the tune. What was the duty cycle and pressure?
 
#8 ·
This is where I need to spend some more time tuning.
I made a datalog but hitting the rev limiter throws any valid WOT information out the window.
It's a fuel cut rev limiter.
Besides that (like a dumb ass) I didn't have "injector duty cycle" enabled in the datalogging information.
I need to get it to a point where it will level off at a WOT rpm so I can verify the Lambda reading and tune from there.

I am still running 45# base fuel pressure so if the duty cycle is high I will increase the fuel pressure to get it where it needs to be.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Wow Mark, that thing is stepping on up. X3 on GN and Steel with the Methanol. As per your buddies, you can leave the Methanol in for a week with no problem, but I don't even recomend that, because at some point the time will stretch out and the damage will be done. When running Methanol, my suggestion is to flush the fuel system within a day of returning home and lube her down.

I surely don't agree with the statement to leave the methyl alcohol in all summer. There is one big difference in their car and our boats. We are subject to a lot of moisture when we are on the lakes and the methanol will definately absorb it.

What I have seen is kind of a three phases of the methanol. 1. Clear liquid, good fuel, 2. it begins to turn to a clear gel, very corrosive to metal parts, 3. it dries to a white powder, plugs everything and the damage is done. At the second or third point in a constant flow injector or carburetor, you can clean the mess out of the lines, pump and nozzles, but it is quite an extensive cleanup and pain... and the corrosion has happend. You can't back up unless you replace everything. On this note, I can't imagine what a mess it could make out of EFI injectors.

All I am saying is, if I had a nice of equipment as you do, I would certainly flush the methanol from the system within a couple of days. Now if you go to 94% nitro... just make sure you have viton o-rings in the system and you can leave it in there with little maintenance:)

Hope this helps.

Gear
 
#11 ·
What I have seen is kind of a three phases of the methanol. 1. Clear liquid, good fuel, 2. it begins to turn to a clear gel, very corrosive to metal parts, 3. it dries to a white powder, plugs everything and the damage is done. At the second or third point in a constant flow injector or carburetor, you can clean the mess out of the lines, pump and nozzles, but it is quite an extensive cleanup and pain... and the corrosion has happend. You can't back up unless you replace everything. On this note, I can't imagine what a mess it could make out of EFI injectors.
Gear
So does some significant evaporation have to take place for this to happen or water absorption sets it off ?
 
#12 · (Edited)
Mark ,either talk to the Amato's or Michael Thomas in the area I dont know about this eating stuff up I mean its not docked in the lake for weeks -sounds odd to me.I might be wrong I dunno but I think its sitting in alot of mfi boats even now.Maybe geterdone will chime in with ....oh never mind sorry.Want to hear more on this whole thing tho ...
 
#14 ·
talk to the Amato's ...
I did talk to Tony and he said he doesnt have any problems with leaving the fuel in the system when you run it regularly.

I run the boat every weekend or more. I'll keep a close eye on it.
 
#13 ·
Mark, I know we had some issues with leaving it in the system up to a month in a dry but hot area. Since then I have just cleaned it out after every outing. With a Funny Car it is easier than with your system (I would imagine anyway).

Paul

On a side note, we ran our plugs at .035 gap but that was NA.
 
#24 ·
I brought my own drum and it was $ 2.78 / gal
 
#19 · (Edited)
Did Tony bother to mention the fuel tank it ate through and split, catching the boat AND him on fire.
I can remeber the pits at Ascot after the races were over and the entire area turned into pickling plant. Every tank drained, every engine ran on gas and Marvel, every nite. And they were running them every weekend. It seems to be the hardest on alum, including all the fuel AN fittings if your using them. And that red and blue ano is no match for the stuff.
Stainless tanks and teflon fuel lines with hard ano fittings and you may get away with leaving it in the tanks for extended periods. It would come down the injectors at that point. Also, since you are not subject to a fuel check, consider some sort of top oil lube in it, like Marvel or an alky top lube oil from some place like Manhattan oil. Meth not only has zero lubrication, it is the best solvent this side of spray carb cleaner. Your intake valves are closing will zero oil film on the lower part of the stem every cycle. You injectors will love you for it too. It may allow you to hold the fuel in the system longer but don't hold me to that one.
One thing is for sure, it isn't ethanol



 
#23 ·
I appreciate the advise and I don't dispute the damage methanol can do in the fuel system but these are the same things I've heard ever since I ran Ethanol too. Difference is I now I'm getting input from people who HAVE run the fuel. :))THumbsUp

I guess in the short term I'm concerned about the submersible automotive fuel pump that's in the tank.
It seems like any braided lines made within the last 10 or 15 years would be methanol compatible.

After I drained the ethanol and was pumping in the methanol I was nervous about it like I was handling nuclear waste or something.
"This is the big stuff, I better be careful"
Come to find out the flash point is way lower than gas anyways.
 
#30 ·
Its one of the reasons they required it at Indy. And why they only use 100% ethonal today, no additives that could possibly effect the ability to extinguish it with water. If you ever watch an Indy race you will see them spray water across the fill of EVERY car, EVERY pit stop, after the disconnect as the car is leaving. Two reasons. first to exstiguish any fire that they may not see that ocured the time of the disconnect, and second, to dilute any fuel on the car below flammability.

Its a safe fuel, but its not fool proof, and unless it night time, you are flaming and don't know it.

Imagine trying to put this out. They never really did. It simply ran out of fuel. This single race forced
more non-ngine/power rule changes than any Indy race in history. Tank size, tank location, fuel type, safety bladders, pit safety rules, etc.
LINK: INDY 1964



 
#32 ·
Mark, I ran VP M1 in my turbo Honda sand car for approximately 8 years. I did NOT drain or purge the fuel system. I did however run Manhattan Oils additive and I did cap the tank vent when I was done for the weekend though. The term I haven't seen mentioned is hydroscopic. The explanation has, which is that methanol will absorb water right out of the atmosphere.

My sand car had an aluminum tank with no annodizing, seemingly a mile of Earls braided hose, and both hard annodized, red/blue anodized, and natural aluminum fittings. Over that time period, I replaced one Earls blue fitting that was starting to pit at the edge of the flare. Upon inspection, this was where the part was hung for anodizing and it was raw in that area. The car is still running (on gas) today with the same tank, filters, lines, fittings, etc. No problems to speak of.
 
#33 ·
Mark, I ran VP M1 in my turbo Honda sand car for approximately 8 years. I did NOT drain or purge the fuel system. I did however run Manhattan Oils additive and I did cap the tank vent when I was done for the weekend though. The term I haven't seen mentioned is hydroscopic. The explanation has, which is that methanol will absorb water right out of the atmosphere.
And its like Baskin Robbins. It comes in 31 different flavors:happy:

Capping the tank vent is huge. The meth by itself i corrosive enough. With a little moiture thrown in, it gets flat ugly. The lube is the way to go. You just have to be careful with what you use. I have no idea if Marvel is compatible with meth. Maybe someone on here can chime in on that. Only used it to pickle and flush an engine and lines with gasoline. Most minerial oils don't play well with meth.



 
#35 ·
Gn-7

Thanks for posting the photo of the "Wild Bunch". That was my favorite car. Brings back lots of old memories from 40 years ago. Lions, Irwindale, OCIR, and Marine Stadium. There was something to watch about every weekend. Sometimes Boats and cars in the same weekend. When you got tired of seeing drag racing there was Ascot. Kids now days are missing out on the really great times that everyone had.

Water kind of took the fun out of alcohol one night. I had a few beers and poured 5 gallons of alcohol into a hotel swimming pool up in Sacramento one night. When I tried to light it, I could not get it to light. I was pretty let down about the fact that it wouldn't light. I really wanted to see a flaming swimming pool! Thinking back about it, it was probably a good thing that it didn't light, because the pool was full of people. What the hell, if it got too hot, they could just dive down under the flames. Life was so simple back then.

Thanks again for bringing back fond memories of great times. I know life is about moving forward, but for the people that were around back then, you know what I mean when I say those times were the best.
 
#36 ·
Methanol doesn't like

Back in the day used to go get my nails done before a race...it was nice to have them done plus it hid alot of the grease...but methanol will melt solar nails right off your fingers...toes are now the only thing getting painted!!:thumb:
 
#38 · (Edited)
I was curious about any additives so I called the Methanol distributor I got it from.

He knew all about the additives but said their stuff is 99.9 % pure and has no additives so it will pass the fuel tests.
 
#39 ·
A lube additive is probably a good idea for you Mark. Can't use it if you are subject to a "fuel test" at a race.

Had a methanol fire in the Cougar on a bright summer day many years back. Looked back once and didn't see anything. It wasn't until the rubber hose started burning that I saw it. Grabbed the extinguisher and thought, "this is gonna make a mess" lol
 
#40 · (Edited)
There's no place to race around here so a fuel check is not a problem.
What's a good lube additive ?
I don't think I'm going to have any cylinder washing problems.
It idles at .96 lambda and it's not dumping in fuel that isn't going to be burned.
This starts and idles just as smooth on methanol as on ethanol and gas.

The inside of the 5" pipe coming out of the turbo is the cleanest I've ever seen it.
Had a little soot with E85.
 
#41 ·
The Methanol experiment continues.
Ran another 22 + gallons of fuel through and went about 35 miles.
The cheap cost of this fuel is not a factor at all as compared to the extreme fuel consumption.

The engine runs real well on it. Starts easy and idles smooth at 900 rpm.
Evidently high compression is not a factor in starting as I'm only at 9.3:1 and it starts cold or hot within 2 revolutions.
I've run about 37 gallons of it so far from 2 outings and the oil still looks as clean as when I started.
Probably made 12 or more WOT runs with it. It's a monster at 30# boost.

We had to idle through a few no wake zones and when the breeze is coming from behind the boat the exhaust fumes are overwhelming.

After one WOT blast at 30# boost it blew the line off the MAP sensor and I didn't know it.
I played back the datalog and the MAP was flatlined at 100kpa / 0 boost.
I would have thought that would have caused a huge problem but the O2 sensor just continued to correct +- 25% to follow the target lambda map and it still ran real good. That was bizzare.
I always heard this was a pretty forgiving fuel.
 
#46 ·
Forgiving meaning still runs well on the fat side.If its on the lean side it's still a blow torch in the makin
 
#42 ·
Mark I think Patty has it right....use it on your fingernails.....I leave the stuff in the tanks, but I run the engine quite a bit..$127 a drum here..I do check and clean my nozzles before going out for the week-end. I change my fuel lines every so often...but I did so with gas as well
 
#43 ·
End of season teardown.

One piston slightly melted. All the others looked good.
The hellfire rings held up good although the ring lands were pinching it on the bad piston.
That caused some significant blowby which ended my boating season a couple weeks ago.
No big deal as those pistons had 4-5 hard years on them anyways.

I believe it happened when the line blew off the MAP sensor. I didn't know it and I still ran it up to 30# boost. Only took a few seconds.

Since I'm not running an intercooler and relying on the fuel for cooling......insufficient fuel means insufficient cooling too. The air temp is probably 280*+ coming out of the turbo's.

I talked to another methanol user and he had a fuel pump / fuel delivery problem that caused a similar problem to a lesser degree with less boost.
Of course it was my fault for not having a clamp on the hose to the MAP sensor but such are the lessons learned with 2000 hp on tap.
The boost line was trying to come off the fuel pressure regulator too. I had a clamp on it and it was slid back until it was up against the hose barb.

I'm going to put two intercoolers on it mounted on the floor alongside either side of the engine. That should give me an extra layer of security in case something like this happens again. They will be out of sight and I can retain the low profile look that I like with the current setup.


I'm also going to install a 2nd set of 60mm wastegates.


There's very little accurate information on burning methanol available so I am having to learn it myself although this problem would have happened with E85 just the same. I don't mind broadcasting my breakdowns, maybe it will help someone else avoid a problem. :thumb:
 
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