Pump Gas or Race Gas Really Now
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Pump Gas or Race Gas Really Now

  1. #1
    LP-25.com Infomaniac's Avatar
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    Default Pump Gas or Race Gas Really Now

    I find the recent events incredibly hilarious. For sure because a guy posts something on the internet. "I'm gonna do this" Nothing has actually happened.

    But in the mix of the discussion a guy builds an engine that runs on "fuel" that you buy at 7-11 made for the family truckster, soccer mom's flex fuel grocery getter. And some guys that are running "fuel" specifically made for racing are yelling You can't run that, thats cheating. LMAO It's not 100% per the rules. All the while running blown boats in unblown classes etc.

    And to imagine all of this coming from the epitome of the land of liberal political agenda. Who would have thunk it.

    Whatever happened to "Bring it"

    Headed to the lake. I'll read the replies later wearing the flame proof suit.

    Happy Saturday.
    If For Some Reason I Do Something Worthy Of Recognition. God Provided The Ability And Deserves The Credit.


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  3. #2
    B1 Racing cs19's Avatar
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    Take it easy on the pump gas deal We all know they make E85 for racing and thats what any racer would run.

    I have one question.

    In a max effort boosted engine, is E85 more detonation resistant than C16?
    B1Racing.net

  4. #3
    FAT GUY IN A TPR STEALTH NO REGRET$'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cs19 View Post
    Take it easy on the pump gas deal We all know they make E85 for racing and thats what any racer would run.

    I have one question.

    In a max effort boosted engine, is E85 more detonation resistant than C16?

    THAT WOULD BE NO

    E 85

    Octane and perfomance


    The examples and perspective in this article may not represent a worldwide view of the subject. Please improve this article and discuss the issue on the talk page. (December 2011)


    E85 fuel dispenser at a regular gasoline station.
    E85 has an octane rating higher than that of regular gasoline's typical rating of 87, or premium gasoline's 91-93. This allows it to be used in higher-compression engines, which tend to produce more power per unit of displacement than their gasoline counterparts. The Renewable Fuels Foundation states in its Changes in Gasoline IV manual, "There is no requirement to post octane on an E85 dispenser. If a retailer chooses to post octane, they should be aware that the often cited 105 octane is incorrect. This number was derived by using ethanol’s blending octane value in gasoline. This is not the proper way to calculate the octane of E85. Ethanol’s true octane value should be used to calculate E85’s octane value. This results in an octane range of 94-96 (R+M)/2. These calculations have been confirmed by actual-octane engine tests." [18]
    Examples of this mis-citation can be found at the Iowa Renewable Fuels Association titled "E85 Facts"[19] which cites a range of 100-105, and a document at the Texas State Energy Conservation Office titled "Ethanol"[20], which cites a 113 rating.
    Use of E85 in an engine designed specifically for gasoline would result in a loss of the potential efficiency that it is possible to gain with this fuel. Use of gasoline in an engine with a high enough compression ratio to use E85 efficiently would likely result in catastrophic failure due to engine detonation, as the octane rating of gasoline is not high enough to withstand the greater compression ratios in use in an engine specifically designed to run on E85. (However, Flex Fuel Vehicles are designed to run on any mixture of gasoline and ethanol, from pure gasoline to E85, and avoid this problem.) Using E85 in a gasoline engine has the drawback of achieving lower fuel economy, as more fuel is needed per unit air (stoichiometric ratio) to run the engine in comparison with gasoline. The additional ethanol required for a stoichiometric fuel ratio helps compensate for lack of energy provided by ethanol's lower heating value (LHV), which is lower than the LHV of gasoline.
    Some vehicles can actually be converted to use E85 despite not being specifically built for it. Because of the lower heating value E85 has a cooler intake charge—which, coupled with its high stability level from its high octane rating—has also been used as a "power adder" in turbocharged performance vehicles. These modifications have not only resulted in lower GHG emissions, but also resulted in 10-12% power and torque increase at the wheels. Because of its low price (less than $2.00/gal in some places) and high availability in certain areas people have started to turn to using it in place of high-end racing fuels, which typically cost over $10.00/gal.
    E85 consumes more fuel in flex-fuel type vehicles when the vehicle uses the same compression ratio for both E85 and gasoline, because of its lower stoichiometric fuel ratio and lower heating value. European car maker Saab, now defunct, produced a flex-fuel version of their 9-5 sedan, which consumes the same amount of fuel whether running e85 or gasoline.[21]


    E 85 is kinda like mixing AV GAS / ALCOHOL
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    Member blown572's Avatar
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    All I can say is that I put 29 degrees of timing no intercooler on e85 with 20 lbs of boost we made a tick over 1800 horsepower on bobs motor and temps in the manifold were under 120 degrees. we should no signs of any detonation. i would have to say they are very comparable. but dollar for dollar i would go with e85 any day. except in my pick up truck it gets shitty mileage with it.

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    Senior Member Boat 405's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blown572 View Post
    but dollar for dollar i would go with e85 any day. except in my pick up truck it gets shitty mileage with it.


    LOL, so true....

    Congrats on the motor
    Boat 405.

  8. #6
    B1 Racing cs19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NO REGRET$ View Post
    THAT WOULD BE NO

    E 85

    Octane and perfomance


    The examples and perspective in this article may not represent a worldwide view of the subject. Please improve this article and discuss the issue on the talk page. (December 2011)


    E85 fuel dispenser at a regular gasoline station.
    E85 has an octane rating higher than that of regular gasoline's typical rating of 87, or premium gasoline's 91-93. This allows it to be used in higher-compression engines, which tend to produce more power per unit of displacement than their gasoline counterparts. The Renewable Fuels Foundation states in its Changes in Gasoline IV manual, "There is no requirement to post octane on an E85 dispenser. If a retailer chooses to post octane, they should be aware that the often cited 105 octane is incorrect. This number was derived by using ethanol’s blending octane value in gasoline. This is not the proper way to calculate the octane of E85. Ethanol’s true octane value should be used to calculate E85’s octane value. This results in an octane range of 94-96 (R+M)/2. These calculations have been confirmed by actual-octane engine tests." [18]
    Examples of this mis-citation can be found at the Iowa Renewable Fuels Association titled "E85 Facts"[19] which cites a range of 100-105, and a document at the Texas State Energy Conservation Office titled "Ethanol"[20], which cites a 113 rating.
    Use of E85 in an engine designed specifically for gasoline would result in a loss of the potential efficiency that it is possible to gain with this fuel. Use of gasoline in an engine with a high enough compression ratio to use E85 efficiently would likely result in catastrophic failure due to engine detonation, as the octane rating of gasoline is not high enough to withstand the greater compression ratios in use in an engine specifically designed to run on E85. (However, Flex Fuel Vehicles are designed to run on any mixture of gasoline and ethanol, from pure gasoline to E85, and avoid this problem.) Using E85 in a gasoline engine has the drawback of achieving lower fuel economy, as more fuel is needed per unit air (stoichiometric ratio) to run the engine in comparison with gasoline. The additional ethanol required for a stoichiometric fuel ratio helps compensate for lack of energy provided by ethanol's lower heating value (LHV), which is lower than the LHV of gasoline.
    Some vehicles can actually be converted to use E85 despite not being specifically built for it. Because of the lower heating value E85 has a cooler intake charge—which, coupled with its high stability level from its high octane rating—has also been used as a "power adder" in turbocharged performance vehicles. These modifications have not only resulted in lower GHG emissions, but also resulted in 10-12% power and torque increase at the wheels. Because of its low price (less than $2.00/gal in some places) and high availability in certain areas people have started to turn to using it in place of high-end racing fuels, which typically cost over $10.00/gal.
    E85 consumes more fuel in flex-fuel type vehicles when the vehicle uses the same compression ratio for both E85 and gasoline, because of its lower stoichiometric fuel ratio and lower heating value. European car maker Saab, now defunct, produced a flex-fuel version of their 9-5 sedan, which consumes the same amount of fuel whether running e85 or gasoline.[21]


    E 85 is kinda like mixing AV GAS / ALCOHOL
    Not much there for your argument
    B1Racing.net

  9. #7
    Bostick Racing Engines six-oh-nine's Avatar
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    I am all for if the rules say you can't do it, then that means you can... but in this instance you have to agree that e-85 is not gasoline... it is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline... and therefore NOT gasoline.

    But then neither is "pump gas" as it can contain as much as 10% methanol.

    Personally... what the hell... go for it... but if a record is set in BGJ and the shit in the tank doesn't pass tech... then this is a moot point... if it passes whatever testing they perform to determine if the fuel is legal or not... then cool.
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  10. #8
    Bostick Racing Engines six-oh-nine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NO REGRET$ View Post
    THAT WOULD BE NO


    E 85 is kinda like mixing AV GAS / ALCOHOL

    Eh... yeah, no.
    The Bostick®

    Some people play hard to get... I play hard to want.

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    Driver 78CoLeBBF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by six-oh-nine View Post
    I am all for if the rules say you can't do it, then that means you can... but in this instance you have to agree that e-85 is not gasoline... it is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline... and therefore NOT gasoline.

    But then neither is "pump gas" as it can contain as much as 10% methanol.

    Personally... what the hell... go for it... but if a record is set in BGJ and the shit in the tank doesn't pass tech... then this is a moot point... if it passes whatever testing they perform to determine if the fuel is legal or not... then cool.
    Just some interesting FYI I've been testing random ethonal contents from fuel stations (for my new SE race motor E85) and shell/ chevron are sometimes as high as 13% ethonal and chevrons E85 is usually 92% ethonal
    Its a FORD thing chevy's arent quick enough to understand

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    Senior Member ap67et10's Avatar
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    Am I reading everything correctly??? I've read that people are complaining about how E85 CANNOT be run, yet also saying C16 is a BETTER fuel than E85 for a boosted deal anyways, and its also a legal fuel to run. If this is true what I'm really trying to understand here is....why in the world would you guys running C16 be up in arms and throwing a fit about E85??? Since apparently it's an inferior fuel, according to what I'm reading you guys posts, I'd think you'd guys would be begging for your competition to run it! So why all drama about the fuel if it's apparently crap compared to the C16 you guys run? Now if it's against the rules then so be it, but I'd expect all you guys to be chomping at the bit to legalize it, since you say it's such garbage anyways...


    AP

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    Spiral out MikeF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ap67et10 View Post
    Am I reading everything correctly??? I've read that people are complaining about how E85 CANNOT be run, yet also saying C16 is a BETTER fuel than E85 for a boosted deal anyways, and its also a legal fuel to run. If this is true what I'm really trying to understand here is....why in the world would you guys running C16 be up in arms and throwing a fit about E85??? Since apparently it's an inferior fuel, according to what I'm reading you guys posts, I'd think you'd guys would be begging for your competition to run it! So why all drama about the fuel if it's apparently crap compared to the C16 you guys run? Now if it's against the rules then so be it, but I'd expect all you guys to be chomping at the bit to legalize it, since you say it's such garbage anyways...


    AP
    E85....because it is made up primarily of ethanol (alcohol)......alcohol is a fuel......therefore cannot be used in a specified race gasoline class.

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    i'm back!! 1QuickCP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cs19 View Post
    Take it easy on the pump gas deal We all know they make E85 for racing and thats what any racer would run.

    I have one question.

    In a max effort boosted engine, is E85 more detonation resistant than C16?

    Yup, in my own dyno pulls, twin turbo 3.8 ltr porsche C-16 vs E85 we could run aprox 12 lbs more boost on e85. Look at it like this, your running 100% alky in a blown alky deal at 11.5-1 and 45-50 psi, now dilute it with 15% gasoline, you end up knocking off around 8 psi boost..(from my own dyno pulls) ...still 11.5-1 static with 38 pounds. Try that on C-16....lol....goodby pistons.


    Now not to say that folks should not be allowed to run E85 in "blown gas" , in fact I personally would like to see it used, way cheaper,easier to tune,better cooling ect.....just that a determination should be made ASAP so everyone can switch over and have time to dial stuff in. IMHO anything that is less expensive/better while allowing more performance is better for the sport. ie The guys need a official ruling on this NOW. One way or another be it 100% gasoline or a blend of gas/alky fuel.


    BTW we have run back to back pulls with methanol vs Ethanol with only very minor jet changes in blown alky motors.
    Last edited by 1QuickCP; 08-05-2012 at 06:17 AM.

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    Senior Member Hass828's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1QuickCP View Post
    Yup, in my own dyno pulls, twin turbo 3.8 ltr porsche C-16 vs E85 we could run aprox 12 lbs more boost on e85. Look at it like this, your running 100% alky in a blown alky deal at 11.5-1 and 45-50 psi, now dilute it with 15% gasoline, you end up knocking off around 8 psi boost..(from my own dyno pulls) ...still 11.5-1 static with 38 pounds. Try that on C-16....lol....goodby pistons.


    Now not to say that folks should not be allowed to run E85 in "blown gas" , in fact I personally would like to see it used, way cheaper,easier to tune,better cooling ect.....just that a determination should be made ASAP so everyone can switch over and have time to dial stuff in. IMHO anything that is less expensive/better while allowing more performance is better for the sport. ie The guys need a official ruling on this NOW. One way or another be it 100% gasoline or a blend of gas/alky fuel.
    I asked that question to a VP fuel rep a while back and he was personally running a BBC with 40psi and no intercooler on the C-16. From what i understand the E-85 is a good fuel for the boosted stuff but designed for moms flex fuel grocery getter. On the other hand the C-16 is a specifically designed racing fuel that is designed to run in high boosted engines with very high intake temps. Both are good fuel but for a max effort deal give me the C.
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    i'm back!! 1QuickCP's Avatar
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    I ran about 36 psi on C-16, but the kicker was static compression in that motor was 7.8-1. I have never had much luck with 11/12-1 static on C-16. I guess a better comparison would be total power output on a proper combo set up for each fuel.

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