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Chev 572 620hp

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    Default Chev 572 620hp

    hi guys, i need some advice from members who have a crate 572.
    I've read several posts on here on this topic...but I need very simple instructions if possible on what I should do (if anything) to a 572 (some people say they blow up in boats) going in a Hamilton J73 jet boat with a 3 stage 773.
    also what exhaust manifolds, heat exchanger etc and where to purchase them and roughly how much.
    Is there a company in the USA that maybe has these already modified or specializes in doing the mods? If so what is an estimate on price?
    Do any of u think I should just leave it as is?
    Thanks heaps
    Last edited by Priceb; 10-13-2012 at 07:47 AM.

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    Engines with automotive clearances (as opposed to marine) have been successfully used time and time again in boats. You just have to be very careful with them until the valves and valve guides get mated together and find their "home". So, a "longer than normal" break-in period is the key. Let all of the parts run-in together and very gently sneak-up on the high RPM stuff. Probably 10hours (that's alot on the water) of no more than 3000 rpm. Then another 10 with some bursts to 4000. Then another 10 with busts to 5000. That might be a little excessive on the time estimates, but you would only have one chance to do it WRONG. The guide have to heat-up and cool-down several times to get a wear pattern that allows enough oil for cooling the metal surfaces that are rubbing together with just that thin film of oil. If you hit 5000 the first time out and some valves stick in the tight guides - pistons are gonna hit them and you're all done.

    You would want to run a synthetic oil - probably a 10/30 or even a 5/30. Valvoline, Mobil-1, Gibbs, TORCO, Lucas, RedLine, Amsoil - take your pick. They are all doing a great job and your motor would be full-roller, which negates any "special" additive needs. All of the molecules in syn are almost identical in size, so more of it will "pack" into the openings (guides, in this case). It will also get up to the valvetrain (again, guides) quicker after startup than a straight-wt or even a much thicker multi-oil. Alot of people run 20/50 or straight 50 because they like to see 100lbs of pressure. 10psi per 1000rpm is a good "standard" practice, but not necessary. The new 1350(hp) Mercury twin-turbo motors run 45 psi at 6000. You're gonna have an oil cooler, so the oil is not going to get overly hot anyway. You would be giving up hp to spin heavier oil than you need and it wouldn't be getting down into your guides as much as you would want.

    CP Performance lists all kinds of heat exchangers for closed-cooling. I would HIGHLY SUGGEST you stick with that idea. The more stable the water (engine) temp, the happier all of those clearances will be.

    You are definitely in the realm of HEADERS as opposed to manifolds. Lightnings or CMIs would be at the top of the list.
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    EFI is the wave of the future. There can be no denying it. Electronics have been on the leading edge of our entire lives. Not only os the magneto dead, but the standard issue CDI is wavering. Its all about total fuel, air AND spark control. Anybody that thinks its not has their head up their ass.


    2001 SleekCraft 30' Heritage SSB, open-bow mid-cuddy. 496HO / Bravo-I.

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    Engines with automotive clearances were designed to run in automobiles. Automobiles run a closed cooling system where they warm up quickly, and maintain a steady relatively state temp. usually somewhere between 180* and 200*. Most recreational small boats like the majority of the ones discussed here have an open cooling system where the engine has cold water from the lake or river circulated through it and the temperatures can vary greatly. The parts of the engine that are effected by the temp of the water, like cylinders and valve guides, will expand more with the closed system's higher water temp. than they will with an open system running cool water. The parts inside the engine, like pistons and valves, will operate at basically the same temp, regardless of the cooling system's water temp. Engines are designed to run with critical clearances between some of these parts, like piston-to-bore clearance, and valve-to-guide clearance, and because of this difference in water temperature and the difference in expanasion of the cylinders and valve guides, those clearances are effected, and need to be adjusted or compensated for, depending on what type of cooling system you're running. Some larger boats (even some race boats) run closed coling systems and can run "automotive" clearances, but open systems can have what's called "hot piston-cold cylinder" syndrome and suddenly the clearances aren't what they were designed to be. Same with valves and valve guides as cold water circulates through the heads, just like the block. Hot valve, cold guide syndrome.
    There is no break in procedure for valve guides!!!
    Bottom line here is, there's really no way of knowing if your engine is set up with enough clearance for marine use without disassembling and inspecting. The piston-to-bore clearance IMO is a little less critical than valve guides since there's more tolerance in bore clearances, but valve guides are a different story. If you start scuffing a piston because if gets tight, you'll know it before disaster occurs, but if you hang up a valve because it sticks in the guide, that can cause a catastrophic failure.
    One more thing to note about crate engines: their quality of assembly and having the proper clearances...even for automotive use, is a roll of the dice, but typically better odds in Vegas than one of these engines being right. There are plenty of horror stories about these engines only lasting a couple hours usually becuase of bearing clearances, oil perssure issues and/or improper assembly. Again, usually best to disassemble and inspect, even if all it costs you is some time and gaskets...you'll have peace of mind. If you're not willing to do that, at least pull the heads and have them inspected for proper marine guide clearances.
    Proper break in...you want to be able to take the boat out and drive it like you stole it the minute you get it on the water. The sooner you can get pressure on the rings and get them seated in the cylinders, the better the ring seal will be and the better the long term life and performance will be. There can be as much as 50hp lost in improper break in procedures...pussyfooting around like the above advice, and not getting any pressure on the rings and getting them seated properly. Low rpm steady-state cruising is about the worst thing you can do. With today;' modern moly faced rings, they'll be about broken in after your first day on the lake, and if all your clearances are correct, there isn't anything to worry about. If your clearances aren't correct, all the break in procedure in the world won't change that.
    JMHO
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcomp View Post
    Engines with automotive clearances were designed to run in automobiles. Automobiles run a closed cooling system where they warm up quickly, and maintain a steady relatively state temp. usually somewhere between 180* and 200*. Most recreational small boats like the majority of the ones discussed here have an open cooling system where the engine has cold water from the lake or river circulated through it and the temperatures can vary greatly. The parts of the engine that are effected by the temp of the water, like cylinders and valve guides, will expand more with the closed system's higher water temp. than they will with an open system running cool water. The parts inside the engine, like pistons and valves, will operate at basically the same temp, regardless of the cooling system's water temp. Engines are designed to run with critical clearances between some of these parts, like piston-to-bore clearance, and valve-to-guide clearance, and because of this difference in water temperature and the difference in expanasion of the cylinders and valve guides, those clearances are effected, and need to be adjusted or compensated for, depending on what type of cooling system you're running. Some larger boats (even some race boats) run closed coling systems and can run "automotive" clearances, but open systems can have what's called "hot piston-cold cylinder" syndrome and suddenly the clearances aren't what they were designed to be. Same with valves and valve guides as cold water circulates through the heads, just like the block. Hot valve, cold guide syndrome.
    There is no break in procedure for valve guides!!!
    Bottom line here is, there's really no way of knowing if your engine is set up with enough clearance for marine use without disassembling and inspecting. The piston-to-bore clearance IMO is a little less critical than valve guides since there's more tolerance in bore clearances, but valve guides are a different story. If you start scuffing a piston because if gets tight, you'll know it before disaster occurs, but if you hang up a valve because it sticks in the guide, that can cause a catastrophic failure.
    One more thing to note about crate engines: their quality of assembly and having the proper clearances...even for automotive use, is a roll of the dice, but typically better odds in Vegas than one of these engines being right. There are plenty of horror stories about these engines only lasting a couple hours usually becuase of bearing clearances, oil perssure issues and/or improper assembly. Again, usually best to disassemble and inspect, even if all it costs you is some time and gaskets...you'll have peace of mind. If you're not willing to do that, at least pull the heads and have them inspected for proper marine guide clearances.
    Proper break in...you want to be able to take the boat out and drive it like you stole it the minute you get it on the water. The sooner you can get pressure on the rings and get them seated in the cylinders, the better the ring seal will be and the better the long term life and performance will be. There can be as much as 50hp lost in improper break in procedures...pussyfooting around like the above advice, and not getting any pressure on the rings and getting them seated properly. Low rpm steady-state cruising is about the worst thing you can do. With today;' modern moly faced rings, they'll be about broken in after your first day on the lake, and if all your clearances are correct, there isn't anything to worry about. If your clearances aren't correct, all the break in procedure in the world won't change that.
    JMHO
    Definitely good advice.

    However;
    1. He is talking "heat exchanger", which indicates he IS going with closed-cooling.
    2. I never said "steady cruising RPM". I would assume he knows to vary the RPM and load during ring seating - I merely advised not to burst the RPM.
    3. If we don't wanna call it "break-in", then fine. But are you saying the valve-stems and guides don't establish a wear pattern as the valves SPIN as well as cycling up/down. Would they not establish grooves similar to piston rings and skirts inside cylinders? What would be the HARM in NOT blasting the motor to 5000 or 6000 the first time out?

    There are plenty of people here that have used auto engines in marine apps. Be them SB, BB, or LS. I know one of them was a CRATE ZZ502 in a heavy jet daycruiser. HE did a similar procedure by letting the motor establish wear patterns before being heavy-fisted with the throttle.

    You're absolutely correct, obviously, about the only way to know is to take them apart and measure.

    You don't have to turn the guy away from what he wants to do just to take shots at me. Just like you, I have opinions as well - IMHO.
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    EFI is the wave of the future. There can be no denying it. Electronics have been on the leading edge of our entire lives. Not only os the magneto dead, but the standard issue CDI is wavering. Its all about total fuel, air AND spark control. Anybody that thinks its not has their head up their ass.


    2001 SleekCraft 30' Heritage SSB, open-bow mid-cuddy. 496HO / Bravo-I.

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    Assembled properly there is no real breaking in period other than seating the rings anymore. Modern building techniques and clearances make the old school methods just that..old school.

    Drive it like you intend to use it. Worth it to have someone check/adjust it for marine use however, there are significant differences as mentioned above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliminator Mojave View Post
    Assembled properly there is no real breaking in period other than seating the rings anymore. Modern building techniques and clearances make the old school methods just that..old school.

    Drive it like you intend to use it. Worth it to have someone check/adjust it for marine use however, there are significant differences as mentioned above.
    I also agree with this. Todays ring and bearing materials are far different from back when everything had an actual break-in period.

    However, one person on here a year or so ago built a motor and the machine shop honed the guides tighter than "marine" spec. He admittedly took the boat out and hammered away on it....letting it cruise up the river at 5000 to break it in. A few valves seized in the guides as things got warm. NOW, obviously there could be other issues at play here, but the point is - if you don't really know how "loose" the guides are.....it would be SAFE to ease up on the RPM.

    Quote Originally Posted by DuaneHTP View Post
    I've had good luck with the crate engines. I just put another new one in a boat today. Yes, it is nice to tear them down and build a professional engine and probably the better way to go if you have the money. The trick of making these engines work and last is mostly in the break in. We always break them in for the customer, (I spent almost two hours on the water with it today), and when the customer picks it up tomorrow, the rev limiter will be set on about 4300 rpm for the first 50 hours. Then you can run 'em.

    I have 2, 502/502 crate engines that we put Isky roller cams in and were tweaked on the dyno. We put them in a boat that was ran less than 10 hours. The customer decided he wanted a little more punch so we took them out and put the 720hp/572's in their place. Make me some offers Guys!

    I did a few valve jobs back in high school and jr. college, so I am by NO MEANs the expert around here on guides. It just goes back to the simplicity of metal-to-metal. DISSIMILAR metals at that. Bearings make their homes against journals. Lifters make their homes against cam lobes. Piston skirts to cylinder walls. Guides and valvestems are no different. Yes, there's a film of oil between all of these, but a different times they are riding against each other. Bottom line - a guy COULDN'T DO ANY HARM by easing into the fresh guides. A guy COULD / AND HAS / DONE HARM by wringing it out before it was ready. Whether or not the guides seize after being easy on it would have to be from another reason - or they were even tighter than street-auto specs.

    Additionally, we all know that back in the day, people used to just grab car, pickup, suburban, whatever engines and stick them into daycruisers. They have worked just fine in most "standard" applications. Now if a guy was going racing all the time and going to ask 110% of the motor - he would be having the heads built to spec anyway and it would be a non-issue. I doubt the guides on a 620hp 572 crate would be REAL tight anyway. That's not your average "street" engine to begin with. Which brings a point - are the guide specs the same for the 620 as they are for the 720R version? That might be the better choice?
    Last edited by Beer:30; 10-13-2012 at 03:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    EFI is the wave of the future. There can be no denying it. Electronics have been on the leading edge of our entire lives. Not only os the magneto dead, but the standard issue CDI is wavering. Its all about total fuel, air AND spark control. Anybody that thinks its not has their head up their ass.


    2001 SleekCraft 30' Heritage SSB, open-bow mid-cuddy. 496HO / Bravo-I.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer:30 View Post
    I also agree with this. Todays ring and bearing materials are far different from back when everything had an actual break-in period.

    However, one person on here a year or so ago built a motor and the machine shop honed the guides tighter than "marine" spec. He admittedly took the boat out and hammered away on it....letting it cruise up the river at 5000 to break it in. A few valves seized in the guides as things got warm. NOW, obviously there could be other issues at play here, but the point is - if you don't really know how "loose" the guides are.....it would be SAFE to ease up on the RPM.




    I did a few valve jobs back in high school and jr. college, so I am by NO MEANs the expert around here on guides. It just goes back to the simplicity of metal-to-metal. DISSIMILAR metals at that. Bearings make their homes against journals. Lifters make their homes against cam lobes. Piston skirts to cylinder walls. Guides and valvestems are no different. Yes, there's a film of oil between all of these, but a different times they are riding against each other. Bottom line - a guy COULDN'T DO ANY HARM by easing into the fresh guides. A guy COULD / AND HAS / DONE HARM by wringing it out before it was ready. Whether or not the guides seize after being easy on it would have to be from another reason - or they were even tighter than street-auto specs.

    Additionally, we all know that back in the day, people used to just grab car, pickup, suburban, whatever engines and stick them into daycruisers. They have worked just fine in most "standard" applications. Now if a guy was going racing all the time and going to ask 110% of the motor - he would be having the heads built to spec anyway and it would be a non-issue. I doubt the guides on a 620hp 572 crate would be REAL tight anyway. That's not your average "street" engine to begin with. Which brings a point - are the guide specs the same for the 620 as they are for the 720R version? That might be the better choice?
    I tossed around the bigger HP ZZ-572 > but it won't be happy on 93 octane, and I don't want to be handcuffed to buying racing fuel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HammerDown View Post
    I tossed around the bigger HP ZZ-572 > but it won't be happy on 93 octane, and I don't want to be handcuffed to buying racing fuel.
    Good call.
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    EFI is the wave of the future. There can be no denying it. Electronics have been on the leading edge of our entire lives. Not only os the magneto dead, but the standard issue CDI is wavering. Its all about total fuel, air AND spark control. Anybody that thinks its not has their head up their ass.


    2001 SleekCraft 30' Heritage SSB, open-bow mid-cuddy. 496HO / Bravo-I.

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    What Steelcomp said

    One of the 30 Daytona's the Church ran
    we put a couple crate 572 in it
    Had to pull the motors in under 50 hrs
    Motors were put together so shitty from the factory
    fixed engines and sold boat done!

    Next boat was powered by a pair of Teague quad rotors in a F32 DCB
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer:30 View Post
    I also agree with this. Todays ring and bearing materials are far different from back when everything had an actual break-in period.

    I did a few valve jobs back in high school and jr. college, so I am by NO MEANs the expert around here on guides. It just goes back to the simplicity of metal-to-metal. DISSIMILAR metals at that. Bearings make their homes against journals. Lifters make their homes against cam lobes. Piston skirts to cylinder walls. Guides and valvestems are no different. Yes, there's a film of oil between all of these, but a different times they are riding against each other.
    I can't speak for the 8.1 Merc, but I never want my bearings getting that friendy with the journals. I can't rememer the last time I "broke in" an engine, but I know it had a flat tappet cam. You don't break in valve guides, rings are broken in by the time you have set the valves on the stand.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSteve View Post
    What Steelcomp said

    One of the 30 Daytona's the Church ran
    we put a couple crate 572 in it
    Had to pull the motors in under 50 hrs
    Motors were put together so shitty from the factory
    fixed engines and sold boat done!

    Next boat was powered by a pair of Teague quad rotors in a F32 DCB
    Eliminator built a twin engi Daytona with 620/572s and it was a disaster. At the customers expense he learned it was not economical. I have to wonder if this isn't the same Daytona



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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer:30 View Post
    However, one person on here a year or so ago built a motor and the machine shop honed the guides tighter than "marine" spec. He admittedly took the boat out and hammered away on it....letting it cruise up the river at 5000 to break it in. A few valves seized in the guides as things got warm. NOW, obviously there could be other issues at play here, but the point is - if you don't really know how "loose" the guides are.....it would be SAFE to ease up on the RPM.
    That would be me. I hadn't built the motor that time. That was a head i sent to loco machine shop to have 4 intake guides replaced. Also asked the to check the springs 220/480 That right should be enough of an indication that it wasn't for my grannies car. Ran almost an hour in the driveway, motor was completely up
    to temp before i spun it allllll the way to 5k.....Yes you are right, other issues....Since then i redid everything...I even replaced the guides that the wanna be machine shop did....I did it Gary Kincaids way...close to 70 hrs on it and other than a few carb issues, no problems. Break in? Nothing more complicated than making sure the motor is completely up to operating temp before
    beating on it.
    I can see the need for wanting slightly more v/g clearance in a marine app. Cylinder head temp is always less than automotive application but exhaust valves are same temp or more.
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    Eliminator built a twin engi Daytona with 620/572s and it was a disaster. At the customers expense he learned it was not economical. I have to wonder if this isn't the same Daytona[/QUOTE]

    Yes, I think they were the first and last crate engines used
    they burned more oil then fuel
    The motors were pulled and sent to
    Paul Phaff racing for a retrofit
    but that was like putting glitter on a piece of shit

    The best application for a crate engine
    is a anchor
    If you ain't the lead dog the view is always the same !

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigSteve View Post
    Eliminator built a twin engi Daytona with 620/572s and it was a disaster. At the customers expense he learned it was not economical. I have to wonder if this isn't the same Daytona
    Yes, I think they were the first and last crate engines used
    they burned more oil then fuel
    The motors were pulled and sent to
    Paul Phaff racing for a retrofit
    but that was like putting glitter on a piece of shit

    The best application for a crate engine
    is a anchor[/QUOTE]


    was that boat for the Owner of Als suspension? (rip Al)

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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    I can't rememer the last time I "broke in" an engine, but I know it had a flat tappet cam.
    So you don't remember it, but you remember it had a flat-tappet? Get your meds adjusted again.

    I do recall that you BROKE a motor when you dumped a bunch of water IN to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    EFI is the wave of the future. There can be no denying it. Electronics have been on the leading edge of our entire lives. Not only os the magneto dead, but the standard issue CDI is wavering. Its all about total fuel, air AND spark control. Anybody that thinks its not has their head up their ass.


    2001 SleekCraft 30' Heritage SSB, open-bow mid-cuddy. 496HO / Bravo-I.

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