460 BBF milkshake repair or drop in replacement?
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460 BBF milkshake repair or drop in replacement?

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    Default 460 BBF milkshake repair or drop in replacement?

    I'm at a crossroads with my family's 75 Wriedt Maverick 18' jet boat. It's been in our family since day 1 when my Dad bought it off the lot in Norwalk, CA. The jet was rebuilt about 15 years ago, but the engine is '75 original. It still runs but blows a lot of oil out of the breathers and has water in the oil. Thinking the engine was shot, I picked up a complete, running 460 from a former jet boat owner that cut up the hull and saved the engine.

    As I've done a little research on the 460, I've come to see there are some common problems that lead to water in the oil. I've also realized there are different generation 460 blocks, heads etc. My original engine has D3VE-A2A heads, D1VE-6015-A2 block, & D0OE 9425 C intake manifold. Internal parts unknown...whatever would've been '75 vintage original. The other complete 460 engine I bought has D2VE-AA heads, D9TE-AB block, & D0VE 9425 B intake. What I found is that the balance is different(internal vs. external) between the two blocks. Also the heads are different...think I read the D2VE heads are "open chamber?" Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Which 460 would you run? Am I better off just dropping the complete, running engine in(D9TE block) or am I better off keeping the older gen engine and finding the source of the water leak?

    I ran a compression test on both engines....the D9TE block, D2VE heads engine has all cylinders around 100 psi. The D1VE block, D3VE heads engine has around 120 psi in all cylinders. In this engine 3 of the cylinders leak cranking pressure as soon as you let off the starter. That makes me think bad head gasket, which could be the source of the oil/water milkshake too, correct? I realize with how old this engine is, I could also be dealing with a cracked block, broken internals, etc.

    I'd like to keep this boat up and running as it has history with my family, I grew up at Paradise Point in this boat, but I can't dump a bunch of $$ into an engine that would cost more than the whole boat.

    Anyone have an opinion on which engine to work with? Is the D9TE block, later engine with lower compression not a good choice? Thank you in advance.

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    170 views and not one reply....wow!?!?

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    "I'm just SPRAYIN' man!!" '78 Crusader's Avatar
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    Your original engine has 120 psi on the cylinders?

    Personally...If you're happy with the performance of your original motor, I'd stick with rebuilding it. A set of rings, bearings and honing of the original block should cost you very much...less than $400 at a machine shop. If you're doing all the tear down and build work yourself, you could get off fairly cheap $$ wise.

    120 psi isn't a bad compression number for a stock motor...especially if it's never been torn down before.
    Cliff
    1978 21' Crusader, 466 CID BBF, Berkely Jet
    1966 13' Boston Whaler sport, 40 HP Yamaha Two Smoker

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    Senior Member Marcsrollin's Avatar
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    Find the source of the water leak! How bad of milk shake is it? Check your intake manifold gaskets! And make sure your engine is getting up to a temp to boil off any condensation!
    No matter how good she looks , someone is tired of her shit!

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    I don't know anything about Fords, but based on your compression numbers it seems like you have 2 motors worth fixing. The decision will have to be yours. The original is something you know. It's been there since day one. I would probably go this direction unless you find something bad inside. It's time to tear it down and make it reliable again.


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    Whichever one you use, don't run D2VE heads. They are the absolute worst BBF heads ever made. The worst of it is the chamber, open and very prone to detonation. D3VE are smogger heads but can be made good with some port work on the exhaust side. With a pro port job they can make around 700 HP, nearly what the early heads can do.

    If you use the running D2VE headed engine at least pull the D3VE heads off the other engine, freshen them up, and use them on the good bottom end. It's worth it to do some work on the exhaust ports if you have the tools and patience. I would also at least pull the pan and check the bearings if you use that bottom end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by '78 Crusader View Post
    Your original engine has 120 psi on the cylinders?

    Personally...If you're happy with the performance of your original motor, I'd stick with rebuilding it. A set of rings, bearings and honing of the original block should cost you very much...less than $400 at a machine shop. If you're doing all the tear down and build work yourself, you could get off fairly cheap $$ wise.

    120 psi isn't a bad compression number for a stock motor...especially if it's never been torn down before.
    For what the boat is, the performance was fine. I'm not looking for any more out of this boat, just a good, consistent running river boat to get us up river and tow a skier. I don't know what this combo would blow when new, but I was surprised it was still blowing 120 considering age and never rebuilt.

    I've looked into a rebuild for the existing engine, and I'm close to $1k just in machine work at a local shop. That is why I picked up the other complete, running engine. I figured I'd be in it around $2k to $2.5k for a full rebuild.....about what the whole boat is probably worth. I have it down to short block status right now. With the pan off, I thought I'd check bearings to see if they're hammered from the milkshake water/oil it was running.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marcsrollin View Post
    Find the source of the water leak! How bad of milk shake is it? Check your intake manifold gaskets! And make sure your engine is getting up to a temp to boil off any condensation!
    I'll try to post a few pics of the 3 suspect areas, timing cover, head gaskets, & intake gaskets. This boat always ran cool once under way. At idle, it ran around 160, once underway, on plane it would drop to 140-ish if I remember correctly. Boat was built in 75 and no gate valve was ever installed, either when new or over the years. I guess the gate valve thing is something that was figured important post 1975?

    Quote Originally Posted by dunk View Post
    Whichever one you use, don't run D2VE heads. They are the absolute worst BBF heads ever made. The worst of it is the chamber, open and very prone to detonation. D3VE are smogger heads but can be made good with some port work on the exhaust side. With a pro port job they can make around 700 HP, nearly what the early heads can do.

    If you use the running D2VE headed engine at least pull the D3VE heads off the other engine, freshen them up, and use them on the good bottom end. It's worth it to do some work on the exhaust ports if you have the tools and patience. I would also at least pull the pan and check the bearings if you use that bottom end.
    Do the D2VE heads have larger cc chambers, hence the lower compression reading? As I was told elsewhere, D2VE heads were never supplied from Ford on D9TE blocks, so this engine is obviously a home built messed up combo of some sort from the past. I haven't had checked the D3 heads yet for valve sealing, etc...but I intend to. I'm not in a position to go for a full rebuild on my old engine....at this point, I'm trying to get the boat up and useable with no water in the oil and reliable, decent power. In the future, maybe I could do something else, but it's hard to justify any major expense on a boat that is probably only worth about $2500???

    Thank you all in advance for your .02 cents

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    "I'm just SPRAYIN' man!!" '78 Crusader's Avatar
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    I'm happy with my D0VE-C heads. Can you score a set of those?
    Cliff
    1978 21' Crusader, 466 CID BBF, Berkely Jet
    1966 13' Boston Whaler sport, 40 HP Yamaha Two Smoker

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt View Post
    Do the D2VE heads have larger cc chambers, hence the lower compression reading? As I was told elsewhere, D2VE heads were never supplied from Ford on D9TE blocks, so this engine is obviously a home built messed up combo of some sort from the past. I haven't had checked the D3 heads yet for valve sealing, etc...but I intend to. I'm not in a position to go for a full rebuild on my old engine....at this point, I'm trying to get the boat up and useable with no water in the oil and reliable, decent power. In the future, maybe I could do something else, but it's hard to justify any major expense on a boat that is probably only worth about $2500???

    Thank you all in advance for your .02 cents
    The chamber size of D2VE heads is very close to the size of the D3VE chamber, there is not a significant difference and compression ratios will be about the same. D2VE was a 1 year only casting. Only made in 72, so of course it never would have came on a 79 and later block from the factory. Ford quickly realized their mistake with that casting and changed the chamber shape from the open chamber D2VE to the more traditional closed or heart shaped chamber of the D3VE. Port size and shape are more or less the same. D2VE has no quench pad and will detonate easily even with low compression. Even with 9:1 or less compression you may have to limit total advance to 30* or less and run premium fuel. It is the absolute worst head Ford ever made for the 385 series engine and was only made for one year as it was quickly apparent that the chamber shape was unacceptable for power and resistance to detonation.

    I would never run those castings on any of my engines. Personally both of my 460 powered vehicles (car and truck) have ported D3VE heads and I'm pleased with the performance. Unfortunately my boat is a BBC, but such is life. If you just want an engine that runs to get you on the water, you can run those heads. Just listen for detonation and don't go crazy with timing. You can always swap them later. A pair of D3VE heads would improve performance and decrease fuel consumption as you'll be able to run the timing curve the engine wants without getting into detonation or octane problems. Some mild exhaust porting and cleanup goes a long way with these heads, even just grinding out the smog bump (shape into a small vane pointing out the exhaust port) and some mild valve guide and bowl smoothing.

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    Dunk....excellent info. Thanks a million for the school session on BBF heads!!

    I dropped my D3 heads off at a local machine shop today for a repair job. The guy checked them when I was there, and I only had one cylinder leaking thru the valve, so that will be repaired. Due to my time constraint, he is going to check them for flat, possibly resurface and repair what is needed along with new valve seals. I asked about doing a full valve job and this old timer machinist's opinion was that unless I'm going full rebuild on the complete engine(which I'm not), we may as well just take care of the obvious issues for the time being.

    Anyone have suggestions on what gaskets(part #'s if you have em) to run with this combo. I have what I was told is the Super Cobra Jet intake. The original Ford part # head gaskets are apparently no longer available, so I need to source different head gaskets too. This is a fresh water only jet boat that is ran at the Colorado River. I see Felpro has "marine" gaskets.....necessary, or only important for ocean going engines?

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    Senior Member Marcsrollin's Avatar
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    Matt , Where are you located?
    No matter how good she looks , someone is tired of her shit!

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    On the edge of Orange & Anaheim Hills, CA. What's up?

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