panther pump question.....
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panther pump question.....

  1. #1
    Senior Member matt1840's Avatar
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    Default panther pump question.....

    So my buddy has a 18 ft eagle jet with a mild built 350 and panther pump. Boats scoots at about 60 mph...

    He recently put the panther rebuild kit minus berrings into the pump( i dont know what that consisted of) but when he stomps it from idle it will jump to about 3k rpm and hold for a second or 2 before the pump bites hard enough to really get the boat moving. it moves but not hard... If he loads the pump at about 1500 rpm for a second then stands on it, it bites hard and takes off.... It sounds like cavitation to me, but not sure... any experts out there think they can chime in on what the issue may be???
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    Senior Member jetboatperformance's Avatar
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    Matt Did he remove the Drive from the Hull ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetboatperformance View Post
    Matt Did he remove the Drive from the Hull ?
    EDIT!!!

    Pump was removed all seals replaced. but i dont remember a wear ring or anything... the suction housing is the wear ring correct?
    Last edited by matt1840; 08-07-2009 at 09:02 PM.
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    Senior Member jetboatperformance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt1840 View Post
    Drive was never removed that i know of... id have to ask... as far as i know the rear section was removed and some seals replaced.... but i dont remember a wear ring or anything... the suction housing is the wear ring correct?
    Yes your correct re the "wear ring" , the reason I ask about removal from the boat is because these suctions are VERY sensitive to proper re sealing , not only against the hull where they mount but along the lower edges of the suction and beginings of the "Cav" plate . That said if it has much clearance between the impeller blades and pump body it will "spin the tires" big time. Collective wear or "steam burn" (impeller vs HSG) is generally compensated by "bondoing" with Devcon epoxy, bronze sleeving and of course our Panther energizer kit $$$ Tell your Bud to call if I can help him diagnose
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetboatperformance View Post
    Tell your Bud to call if I can help him diagnose
    X2.... have him call Tommy
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    Senior Member matt1840's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetboatperformance View Post
    Yes your correct re the "wear ring" , the reason I ask about removal from the boat is because these suctions are VERY sensitive to proper re sealing , not only against the hull where they mount but along the lower edges of the suction and beginings of the "Cav" plate . That said if it has much clearance between the impeller blades and pump body it will "spin the tires" big time. Collective wear or "steam burn" (impeller vs HSG) is generally compensated by "bondoing" with Devcon epoxy, bronze sleeving and of course our Panther energizer kit $$$ Tell your Bud to call if I can help him diagnose
    Tom what is the proper clearance to have between the impeller and the housing??? im going to rip the tail end of his pump off today and check it.

    The weird thing is the boat never did this last week we changed it up to a bigger cam and some nasty heads along with a nice intake... Now with that extra power its just cav'n like a bastard. Ive tried to talk him into the energizer but its money he doesnt wanna spend lol... What are some other options with the panther for performance gains???
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    Senior Member jetboatperformance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt1840 View Post
    Tom what is the proper clearance to have between the impeller and the housing??? im going to rip the tail end of his pump off today and check it.

    The weird thing is the boat never did this last week we changed it up to a bigger cam and some nasty heads along with a nice intake... Now with that extra power its just cav'n like a bastard. Ive tried to talk him into the energizer but its money he doesnt wanna spend lol... What are some other options with the panther for performance gains???
    Matt ,can't find my Panther manual since the move for "thier spec" but Jacuzzi YJ (similar axial flow) can run down to below .007 If your going to "devcon" and the bearing has no "run out" you can bring down to damn near zero Tom

    re the difference from before ... sounds like he "over horsepowered" the jet plain and simple , re other performance gains, the only one I know of is ours
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetboatperformance View Post
    Matt ,can't find my Panther manual since the move for "thier spec" but Jacuzzi YJ (similar axial flow) can run down to below .007 If your going to "devcon" it you can bring down to damn near zero Tom

    re the difference from before ... sounds like he "over horsepowered" the jet plain and simple , re other performance gains, the only one I know of is ours

    I doubt its "overhorsepowered" SB 350 stock compression 488/488 cam with a set of ported heads which have been decked sllightly so the compression may be slightly higher... Edelbrock air gap intake and 750 carb... other than that its not a power house.

    We popped the end off the pump today and found the clearances from left to right are .027 and the top was .030 and the bottom was .005 which is a bit weird...

    These pumps im assuming have a thrust berring... The end play is quite excessive to me but then again ive never built a panther.. But i know if i had that much play on my berk id be changing it... With as much clearance as there is between the intake houseing and how oblong it is around the impeller im guessing its a bit sloppy and needs a new berring and possibly bushing to "tighten" up the play.. There is no front to back pay just side to side and up and down. Here is a video to show whats up.. After tightned up somethin is going to have to be addressed for the intake housing.. PM me with some prices on machining and installing the bronze ring, or possibly some more info oh the expoy resin you were speaking of.

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    Senior Member jetboatperformance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt1840 View Post
    I doubt its "overhorsepowered" SB 350 stock compression 488/488 cam with a set of ported heads which have been decked sllightly so the compression may be slightly higher... Edelbrock air gap intake and 750 carb... other than that its not a power house.

    We popped the end off the pump today and found the clearances from left to right are .027 and the top was .030 and the bottom was .005 which is a bit weird...

    These pumps im assuming have a thrust berring... The end play is quite excessive to me but then again ive never built a panther.. But i know if i had that much play on my berk id be changing it... With as much clearance as there is between the intake houseing and how oblong it is around the impeller im guessing its a bit sloppy and needs a new berring and possibly bushing to "tighten" up the play.. There is no front to back pay just side to side and up and down. Here is a video to show whats up.. After tightned up somethin is going to have to be addressed for the intake housing.. PM me with some prices on machining and installing the bronze ring, or possibly some more info oh the expoy resin you were speaking of.

    Happy to try to help you with this I'm at the shop Tom
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    Matt, there are a couple of other clearances to look for on the Panther Jet. One, I call the rear axial clearance, this is measured with a straight edge across the case to check the distance between the case flange and the back of the impeller. It needs to be between .020 and .030". Shims are used to move the impeller back if needed. The other check is also very important and this involves the stator rings that are on the bowl flange that tucks into the impeller. I call this the rear radial clearances. There are 3 rings on this flange and if they are worn too far you will loose alot of thrust. The impeller sometimes actually wears on these rings. The radial clearance at this point should be .015". This clearance is important for a second reason, it reduces the load on the tail bearing. If your shaft is moving it may be the bearing package. Two timken tapered rollers are sandwiched together and held tight by the bearing nut and lock washer. Sometimes these washers break, the nut backs off, and the bearing package loosens up. The bearings usually last a long time because they are sitting in an oil bath, unless water gets to them of course. I know that you are getting good help from Tom but if you need more discussion to back up Toms knowledge give me a call anytime. You will have to look me up, I am not a paid advertizer here. Good luck Jim
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    Senior Member jetboatperformance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Performance Jet View Post
    Matt, there are a couple of other clearances to look for on the Panther Jet. One, I call the rear axial clearance, this is measured with a straight edge across the case to check the distance between the case flange and the back of the impeller. It needs to be between .020 and .030". Shims are used to move the impeller back if needed. The other check is also very important and this involves the stator rings that are on the bowl flange that tucks into the impeller. I call this the rear radial clearances. There are 3 rings on this flange and if they are worn too far you will loose alot of thrust. The impeller sometimes actually wears on these rings. The radial clearance at this point should be .015". This clearance is important for a second reason, it reduces the load on the tail bearing. If your shaft is moving it may be the bearing package. Two timken tapered rollers are sandwiched together and held tight by the bearing nut and lock washer. Sometimes these washers break, the nut backs off, and the bearing package loosens up. The bearings usually last a long time because they are sitting in an oil bath, unless water gets to them of course. I know that you are getting good help from Tom but if you need more discussion to back up Toms knowledge give me a call anytime. You will have to look me up, I am not a paid advertizer here. Good luck Jim
    Good info Jim , Hey Matt theres allways this method too

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    Cas
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    Quote Originally Posted by Performance Jet View Post
    The other check is also very important and this involves the stator rings that are on the bowl flange that tucks into the impeller. I call this the rear radial clearances. There are 3 rings on this flange and if they are worn too far you will loose alot of thrust.
    in the picture below, you can see the Stator Rings that Jim is referring to-

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    Cas
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    Installation Instructions, as Tom mentioned, if the pump is not sealed well, it can suck a lot of air. Hopefully you changed the foam seal as reusing the old one can cause issues with air getting through.

    PANTHER JET INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS

    1. MAKE SURE THE MOUNTING SURFACES ARE CLEAN AND DRY.
    2. USE ONLY CLEAR GE 100% SILICONE. IF YOU CHOOSE TO USE ANYTHING ELSE YOU ARE DOING SO AT YOUR OWN RISK. THIS SILICONE WORKED BETTER THAN ALL OTHERS THAT WE TESTED.
    3. IT WILL BE MUCH EASIER TO INSTALL IF THE ENGINE IS NOT IN THE BOAT.
    4. PUT A DAB OF SILICONE IN EACH ONE OF THE 5 MAIN BOLT HOLES. APPLY A LIBERAL AMOUNT ON THE FOAM SEAL AND DOWN BOTH SIDES OF THE INTAKE AS SHOWN IN YOUR INSTALLATION BOOKLET FIGURE 2-9. ALSO APPLY SILICONE IN THE HOLES WHERE THE CABLES GO THROUGH AT THIS TIME. IT IS BEST IF YOU DO NOT REMOVE THE THREADS FOR THE 43BC CABLES.
    5. HAVE SOMEONE IN THE BOAT AND SOMEONE OUTSIDE THE BOAT WITH THE JET. IT IS CRITICAL THAT WHEN MOVING THE JET INTO THE INSERT THAT YOU DO NOT SMEAR THE SILICONE ON THE FRONT OF THE JET. IF YOU FEEL THAT YOU HAVE, DON’T EVEN THINK TWICE, TAKE THE JET OUT AND REAPPLY SILICONE WHERE NEEDED AND START OVER.
    6. AFTER YOU HAVE GOTTEN THE MOUNT BOLTS TIGHTENED DOWN BUILD A PYRAMID OF SILICONE ON EACH MAIN MOUNT BOLT.
    7. INSTALL YOUR CABLES AND APPLY SILICONE WHEREVER YOU CAN TO PREVENT AN AIR LEAK AROUND THE CABLES. REMEMBER, THIS JET WILL SUCK AIR THROUGH A PINHOLE UNDER A LOAD BUT IT MAY NOT DRIP WATER AT ALL IF THE HOLE IS SMALL.
    8. IF YOU ARE INSTALLING THE INTAKE GRATE CLEAN BOTH SURFACES AND APPLY A BEAD OF SILICONE ALL OVER THE FACE OF THE GRATE AND PUT A LITTLE BIT IN EACH OF THE MOUNT BOLT HOLES. AFTER TIGHTENING BUILD YOUR PYRAMID OF SILICONE AS BEFORE.
    9. THIS COMPLETES THE INSTALLATION AND IF YOU FOLLOWED THE DIRECTIONS YOU WILL NOT HAVE TO DO THIS AGAIN FOR ANOTHER 20 YEARS IF YOU MAINTAIN THE JET DRIVE.
    10. IF YOU CAVITATE AFTER THE INSTALL, CHECK FOR WATER LEAKS, AND APPLY MORE SILICONE IF NEEDED.
    11. CHECK FOR LEAKS UNDER POWER AND WATER IN THE BEARING OIL.
    12. IF NOTHING APPEARS TO BE WRONG YOU WILL NEED A NEW FOAM SEAL AND REINSTALL.
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    Senior Member matt1840's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetboatperformance View Post
    Good info Jim , Hey Matt theres allways this method too

    m tryin to talk him into it...

    Hes worried about the performance of a smallblock on a berk pump though..

    Jim, cas thanks again! im sure my buddy and i will get this problem fixed in no time straight... He works for a differential shop so the timken berrings will be at cost for him which should be pretty cheap.. Anyone have the model number for those berrings???

    We just got the motor in on monday looks like its comin back out asap!

    Oh and yesterday on motor breakin we wont discuss that.. somebody ::cough cough:: left the intake hose off the rear of the pump and smashed down the river without any water flowing..


    Hmmmmm i remember suggesting a water pressure gauge at one point and being told no... Hmmmmm lol!

    motor didnt get to hot i mean any water that splashed over actually boiled off the logs and heads to help cool it lol! it should be ok..

    after hooking it up drinking a few beers and allowing the motor to cool for 2 hrs while floating down sac river... we got it fired and no signs on headgasket damage... big miss there.
    Last edited by matt1840; 08-08-2009 at 05:13 PM.
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