New Metal Properties Coming Fast mag. Bronze Vs 17-4PH Stainless Impellers
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New Metal Properties Coming Fast mag. Bronze Vs 17-4PH Stainless Impellers

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    ATM
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    Default New Metal Properties Coming Fast mag. Bronze Vs 17-4PH Stainless Impellers


    FACT CHECKER
    Mechanical Properties

    Manganese Bronze TENSILE STRENTH (ksi) 115
    17-4PH Stainless Steel TENSILE STRENTH (ksi) 189

    Manganese Bronze YIELD (ksi) 65
    17-4PH Stainless Steel YIELD (ksi) 165

    Manganese Bronze ELONGATION % 15
    17-4PH Stainless Steel ELONGATION % 11


    There are numerous “Published Charts” out there; the ones I read indicate that 17-4PH Stainless is nearly twice as strong as MANGANESE bronze. There are far more cracked (blown-up) MANGANESE bronze impellers out there than 17-4PH ones I guarantee that. And yes the MANGANESE bronze might be half the price blue-printed and shipped 17-4PH Stainless Steel but, “if you don’t have the time to do it right when are you going to have time to do it over”

    Ron Gordon
    Last edited by ATM; 09-29-2009 at 07:03 PM. Reason: Did not state MANGANESE bronze

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    Default question

    what do you believe the mag bronze is good up to HP wise, 1000hp? 2000hp?, like the "charts" say?
    thanks, rondane

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    Quote Originally Posted by ATM View Post
    FACT CHECKER
    Mechanical Properties

    Manganese Bronze TENSILE STRENTH (ksi) 115
    17-4PH Stainless Steel TENSILE STRENTH (ksi) 189

    Manganese Bronze YIELD (ksi) 65
    17-4PH Stainless Steel YIELD (ksi) 165

    Manganese Bronze ELONGATION % 15
    17-4PH Stainless Steel ELONGATION % 11


    There are numerous “Published Charts” out there; the ones I read indicate that 17-4PH Stainless is nearly twice as strong as bronze. There are far more cracked (blown-up) bronze impellers out there than 17-4PH ones I guarantee that. And yes the bronze might be half the price blue-printed and shipped 17-4PH Stainless Steel but, “if you don’t have the time to do it right when are you going to have time to do it over”

    Ron Gordon
    Hi Ron, Several Years ago we mass spectortrometered one of your S/Steel impellers, it was a 400 series SSteel. which fell below the Mag Bronze... I am Glad to see you are pouring a 17-4 and perhaps the one we had was made for you in New Zealand... If you Look at my past posts I have always said our S.Steel was 17-4 except, we then anneal and mild H.T. our stainless Impeller...exceeding the produced as cast 17-4.
    No one to my knowledge has ever broke our S/Steel Impeller, yet I am aware of yours folding over on the vanes and being replaced by ours.

    My Data comes from the Ingot As Cast Graph not A Machinist Handbook... Which I stated our's with a H.T. has a 135,000 PSI not your 185,000. I may have been underestimating our Impeller or you are way over with the 185,000#, which seems very high to me. So with a HT will ours go to 200,000

    As to The Mag. vs Bronze Coming apart I would agree... I was not aware of any other Bronze Impellers being Manufactured, Until I got a call from Tom Papp one day. He was sure an Impeller was not our's and asked me to drive out and Verify such to Him. A New Customer had removed his Boat from another shop over a dispute and had been sold a new Aggressor Mag. Impeller... I told him I did not sell one to that Dealer and he asked me to please come and verify anyway. I did and it was not our Impeller, it was also not Mag Bronze, at best maybe Alum. Bronze, but A file indicated more to me to be Bronze a far far less alloy then any mag.alloy. We have had exceptional performance and duration with our Mag. and almost every release seems to get better. Its been in the in field in High Performance with Big Motors in numbers "I think it exceed your SS units". If not, then in any case it is well proven its self above and beyond. As to my Detail Blue Print. I do that my self and take pride in what I produce in this line and also in our S.Steel line. I do that as nothing as cast will ever beat the human eye, for flow or performance. Our Mag has Blue Print booked into the sales price which make your price gap even more. Most customers state a specific motor power band and the Impeller is cut to match such. In the case of the Dealer it is Blue Printed and the Dealer can cut it to the spec's he wants and may or may not do additional detail to it. Our S.Steel (Far lower demand) also includes the same + Anneled/HT and is also detailed yet Lists for again less then yours Un-Blue Printed. it not the tooling as I am aware of your cast system vs ours and know what our core prints and tie up gives us in overall vs yours. We further use a propritey Alloy MBF Mag Bronze and I understate the 110,000 by picking the closest match to our MBF alloy, which has been developed to exceed the 824, 844 alloy's.

    As to your statement on Bronze being "Blown UP" You may be very right and you did say Bronze Not Mag. Bronze. Perhaps if you fill I am trying to put something over on the Public I would be happy, Piece by Piece to go thru my product Line vs Yours. You are aware of vanes being folded over on your SS Impellers and our's being the replacements.

    I have not a clue on your Tenzaloy Alloy comment as every chart I have seen shows it with a 8,000 higher strength. It only makes sense to me a pure alloy with a Mag additive beats a 356T6 which is one level above bunk. The other is clean enough to be self annealing while 365 takes H.T. to anneal.
    What ever the case we went to the same 356 as you are using several years ago because of the BS which we were out marketed on. So who won you or the consumer. The US Navy developed Tenzaloy for Marine application and it is the Navy Alloy of Choice with over and above strength, it is resistive to salt water, and a host of other conditions to make it the choice. It is a lot easer to pour the 356 by a long shot and because of the bunk in the alloy it would do you no good to Argon Purge and skim such as we required in the Tenzaloy.

    I know its a tough market and we must defend every action out there, yet I fill, I see way to much BS being pushed on the Buyer, with way to many Guru's who have yet to go over a 100 MPH in a boat. So I fill my visits cause a little board problems yet I represent the facts as best I know them. You produce in hundreds and I in tens... I have little or no overhead and you a big one. You are very aware we have been in and only gone after the Performance market and I have sent every OEM Builder to you. My tooling is capable of producing over 1500 unit per year also, and I have a lower cost factor then you, with almost no overhead. I am a Old fart on SS and this is my 3rd start up company so I don't need much, except I love Jets & R&D and Racing since I started in it @ 15. Its always been my goal to go to 73 or so and then bow out. Until then continue to develop all we have started and have yet hanging on the walls. We do it because we love it, you do it as a Job which maybe you love. No Company since the original Berkeley Team has been more active in development, In Field test then this company. A fire took out 2 buildings and most all tooling when Major Bras owned it, it also put you in the front boat you are in. Aggressor dropped from over a million $ of sales to nothing and was on its way to leading the pack and was only in its 3rd year of release, with a future product line un-seen to this industry. You are not my target or I would go another direction and that one is easy "Numbers". Advancement of the Jet Drive is my target and goal, unless you want to dispute. Dave Jones.
    Last edited by [email protected]; 09-29-2009 at 04:19 PM.

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    Way cool Pops that you do so much R&D.
    I'm kind of a fan at the NJBA races and know a few of the racers. Which guys are testing for you there? I'd like to watch their progress.

    Cs

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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Hi Ron, Several Years ago we mass spectortrometered one of your S/Steel impellers, it was a 400 series SSteel. which fell below the Mag Bronze... I am Glad to see you are pouring a 17-4 and perhaps the one we had was made for you in New Zealand... If you Look at my past posts I have always said our S.Steel was 17-4 except, we then anneal and mild H.T. our stainless Impeller...exceeding the produced as cast 17-4.
    No one to my knowledge has ever broke our S/Steel Impeller, yet I am aware of yours folding over on the vanes and being replaced by ours.

    My Data comes from the Ingot As Cast Graph not A Machinist Handbook... Which I stated our's with a H.T. has a 135,000 PSI not your 185,000. I may have been underestimating our Impeller or you are way over with the 185,000#, which seems very high to me. So with a HT will ours go to 200,000

    As to The Mag. vs Bronze Coming apart I would agree... I was not aware of any other Bronze Impellers being Manufactured, Until I got a call from Tom Papp one day. He was sure an Impeller was not our's and asked me to drive out and Verify such to Him. A New Customer had removed his Boat from another shop over a dispute and had been sold a new Aggressor Mag. Impeller... I told him I did not sell one to that Dealer and he asked me to please come and verify anyway. I did and it was not our Impeller, it was also not Mag Bronze, at best maybe Alum. Bronze, but A file indicated more to me to be Bronze a far far less alloy then any mag.alloy. We have had exceptional performance and duration with our Mag. and almost every release seems to get better. Its been in the in field in High Performance with Big Motors in numbers "I think it exceed your SS units". If not, then in any case it is well proven its self above and beyond. As to my Detail Blue Print. I do that my self and take pride in what I produce in this line and also in our S.Steel line. I do that as nothing as cast will ever beat the human eye, for flow or performance. Our Mag has Blue Print booked into the sales price which make your price gap even more. Most customers state a specific motor power band and the Impeller is cut to match such. In the case of the Dealer it is Blue Printed and the Dealer can cut it to the spec's he wants and may or may not do additional detail to it. Our S.Steel (Far lower demand) also includes the same + Anneled/HT and is also detailed yet Lists for again less then yours Un-Blue Printed. it not the tooling as I am aware of your cast system vs ours and know what our core prints and tie up gives us in overall vs yours. We further use a propritey Alloy MBF Mag Bronze and I understate the 110,000 by picking the closest match to our MBF alloy, which has been developed to exceed the 824, 844 alloy's.

    As to your statement on Bronze being "Blown UP" You may be very right and you did say Bronze Not Mag. Bronze. Perhaps if you fill I am trying to put something over on the Public I would be happy, Piece by Piece to go thru my product Line vs Yours. You are aware of vanes being folded over on your SS Impellers and our's being the replacements.

    I have not a clue on your Tenzaloy Alloy comment as every chart I have seen shows it with a 8,000 higher strength. It only makes sense to me a pure alloy with a Mag additive beats a 356T6 which is one level above bunk. The other is clean enough to be self annealing while 365 takes H.T. to anneal.
    What ever the case we went to the same 356 as you are using several years ago because of the BS which we were out marketed on. So who won you or the consumer. The US Navy developed Tenzaloy for Marine application and it is the Navy Alloy of Choice with over and above strength, it is resistive to salt water, and a host of other conditions to make it the choice. It is a lot easer to pour the 356 by a long shot and because of the bunk in the alloy it would do you no good to Argon Purge and skim such as we required in the Tenzaloy.

    I know its a tough market and we must defend every action out there, yet I fill, I see way to much BS being pushed on the Buyer, with way to many Guru's who have yet to go over a 100 MPH in a boat. So I fill my visits cause a little board problems yet I represent the facts as best I know them. You produce in hundreds and I in tens... I have little or no overhead and you a big one. You are very aware we have been in and only gone after the Performance market and I have sent every OEM Builder to you. My tooling is capable of producing over 1500 unit per year also, and I have a lower cost factor then you, with almost no overhead. I am a Old fart on SS and this is my 3rd start up company so I don't need much, except I love Jets & R&D and Racing since I started in it @ 15. Its always been my goal to go to 73 or so and then bow out. Until then continue to develop all we have started and have yet hanging on the walls. We do it because we love it, you do it as a Job which maybe you love. No Company since the original Berkeley Team has been more active in development, In Field test then this company. A fire took out 2 buildings and most all tooling when Major Bras owned it, it also put you in the front boat you are in. Aggressor dropped from over a million $ of sales to nothing and was on its way to leading the pack and was only in its 3rd year of release, with a future product line un-seen to this industry. You are not my target or I would go another direction and that one is easy "Numbers". Advancement of the Jet Drive is my target and goal, unless you want to dispute. Dave Jones.
    Must say , Amazingly well written Dave!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clockstart View Post
    Way cool Pops that you do so much R&D.
    I'm kind of a fan at the NJBA races and know a few of the racers. Which guys are testing for you there? I'd like to watch their progress.

    Cs
    Thank You, Racers have been in my Life for as Long as I can remember. I love the optimism and the spirit. I have a Granddaughter bugging me to build her a Race Boat... She wants to go to every Race and Every Race say's Pop I want a Race Boat... Last month I asked a Friend if he would Pull his Boat out and give her a Sound Hard Ride.
    He did and as I seen him hit the NosI thought for sure this Cheer Leader would wet her Pants. Nope, she was Ear to Ear Grin coming in, seen me and Yelled "I WANT ONE".

    I have a plan should some testing work out in the very near future with our new Mid Drive, to build a new Race Deck on my 16' Tunnel again (Last mold Burned Up) and again make another mold. Approach the Race Circuit People towards a Jr. Class, maybe like 1/8 Mile or something. I have talked about this years ago and think it would be a great class with some level of control standards. I know the problem will be the Dad's pumping Nos, Fuel, wanting the Kids to run 2,000 HP Eco Motors turning 6.0 sec 1/8 Miles or something.

    It also would add the new Racer factor to the Industry. It will take some thinking on the associations part as to how to safely control the program. But the Clocks, Launch, Lights all would be there.

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    I am all in on a Jr racer program. My 6 year old has mastered running her quad into the bushes and in a couple years I would love to see her in a jr class. I have a v bottom that would be great for that. It would be great to begin grooming a new generation for drag racing.

    Cy
    Vinyl Graphics, Magnetic signs, Reg #s, Boat names, Banners, Boat decals, Etc. Please contact me Via facebook or e-mail [email protected].

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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Thank You, Racers have been in my Life for as Long as I can remember. I love the optimism and the spirit. I have a Granddaughter bugging me to build her a Race Boat... She wants to go to every Race and Every Race say's Pop I want a Race Boat... Last month I asked a Friend if he would Pull his Boat out and give her a Sound Hard Ride.
    He did and as I seen him hit the NosI thought for sure this Cheer Leader would wet her Pants. Nope, she was Ear to Ear Grin coming in, seen me and Yelled "I WANT ONE".

    I have a plan should some testing work out in the very near future with our new Mid Drive, to build a new Race Deck on my 16' Tunnel again (Last mold Burned Up) and again make another mold. Approach the Race Circuit People towards a Jr. Class, maybe like 1/8 Mile or something. I have talked about this years ago and think it would be a great class with some level of control standards. I know the problem will be the Dad's pumping Nos, Fuel, wanting the Kids to run 2,000 HP Eco Motors turning 6.0 sec 1/8 Miles or something.

    It also would add the new Racer factor to the Industry. It will take some thinking on the associations part as to how to safely control the program. But the Clocks, Launch, Lights all would be there.

    me and my 10yr old son are building a 1000hp ls turbo sbc together right now to put in a 16ft tunnel(if i can find 1). the whole time he was tearing down the motor, he was telling me how he thought that next summer was his summer to learn how to drive dad's dragboat since his 12yr old sister gets too we've already been talking together about building him a 4.3 v6 i have down in the barn, put a lil turbo on it see if we can slap a 600hp v6 into his 1st truck at 15

    Dare to be different, if it turns out great you can claim you planned it that way.

    Jetboatperformance.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPATIENT 1 View Post
    me and my 10yr old son are building a 1000hp ls turbo sbc together right now to put in a 16ft tunnel(if i can find 1). the whole time he was tearing down the motor, he was telling me how he thought that next summer was his summer to learn how to drive dad's dragboat since his 12yr old sister gets too we've already been talking together about building him a 4.3 v6 i have down in the barn, put a lil turbo on it see if we can slap a 600hp v6 into his 1st truck at 15
    That is way to cool. Did not catch where you Live, but if your close to Gardena call me and come by I will show you Our's... I originally picked up the Mold from Brock (Cyclone Speed) The Hull had been ran in NJBA @ 114 with a S/Block Motor, and a B/Block @ 124 MPH... I decided to re do the mold by changing the Tunnel Just a Bit & Got Tom Papp to go over it also. Tom Played with it a Couple times @ Elsinore. It never got stupid in any hard shutdowns As far as I can find out.
    Originally I Built 6 units from the Mold, and Built a Family style Deck for a 5 seater. It was my intention to run our original Jr. Drive with a Small Motor
    Mazda Rotary or Something Else. The one I have I wanted to put Graphics in the Mold to Learn reverse graphics( Have done Graphic most all my life and enjoy doing so) Reverse is a mess and slow. There are 3 Total out there, 1 went to Big Ash a Buddy of mine, which had a Marine Power small block in and it ran right at 70+ out of the box. A second I sold to Tom @ Jet Boat Performance, who put a small block in it also, He since sold it I believe. I kept the first one & had three on the roof which were burned up & was storing. The First i kept and have a Jr. Dual Drive in it which we ran a verity of others motors first.
    I blew it on the Bottom Freeboard as the moulding is the water line and this I will extend on the next mold. We played with shutting down the air trapment exits a little with the lighter less power motors. My nephew I gave the boat to after i get I make mold again or he can have a new one. He picked up a V6 4.3 and wants to run it Dual Drive. I for some reason am sold on the Eco Tech and in my desert rides have seen some shred after build ups.
    So your welcome to check it out. I think the program would work and enough Dad's, Uncles, Moms would find a program to be a lot of fun. I know it works well with Big Power also... Its a very quick hull!
    Last edited by [email protected]; 09-30-2009 at 12:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPATIENT 1 View Post
    me and my 10yr old son are building a 1000hp ls turbo sbc together right now to put in a 16ft tunnel(if i can find 1). the whole time he was tearing down the motor, he was telling me how he thought that next summer was his summer to learn how to drive dad's dragboat since his 12yr old sister gets too we've already been talking together about building him a 4.3 v6 i have down in the barn, put a lil turbo on it see if we can slap a 600hp v6 into his 1st truck at 15
    DAD!!!!!! I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR YOU! MOM SAID I MIGHT FIND YOU ON THE BOARDS! MOM SAID YOU MIGHT NOT REMEMBER TOO , YOU WERE HAMMERED !

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    LMAO.... Funny Funny Funny... I needed that!Did that have to do with any posts I did the other day... The Papp people said I was a little Whackey and to pass it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbo wog View Post
    DAD!!!!!! I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR YOU! MOM SAID I MIGHT FIND YOU ON THE BOARDS! MOM SAID YOU MIGHT NOT REMEMBER TOO , YOU WERE HAMMERED !
    You got to love those good old Boy's, Funny thing is they build some kinda horse power out in them tractor sheds. I heard when they put the Fuel in some of them, the Shed try's to walk away, just shaking and rattling, as it moves down the farm. I know one good old Boy back there who puts the Hurt on the TFH, Dual Propers Un-sponcered, Fact is he's walked away with a couple of the Worlds.

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